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LPG

33 posts & 11 voices | Started 6 months ago by mboy | Latest reply from mboy

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mboy - Member

Following on from my earlier thread about Diesel Vs Petrol, does LPG still make sense these days? Seems to be more and more LPG converted cars on the market these days (thinking of buying one already done, rather than footing a massive bill to convert an existing car), so it has got me thinking, but...

Firstly, where the hell do you buy it these days? Seems there's nowhere within about 20 miles of me that you don't have to have an account for (Countrywide, Calor Gas etc.), not long ago it was on most forecourts, why not so now? Or am I missing something?

Secondly, are the systems reliable? Anyone any long term experience of LPG systems?

Thirdly, how much is it per litre now? Was about 70p a litre last time I noticed.

Cheers

Posted 6 months ago #
v8ninety - Member

Countrywide is great if there's one near you. Don't knock the account thing, it means you've got 24/7 unfettered access to the pump, and one bill at the end of the month. Was always the most competitive price wise too, though I can't help you with current prices, my V8 has been off the road for a while.

Posted 6 months ago #
MidlandTrailquestsGraham - Member

Just get an account.
I'm with Countrywide. I think it's about 58p per litre, as against about 70p on forecourts. There's one about 2 miles from work in Kidderminster where I can fill up any time and get a bill at the end of the month.
What's not to like ?
You're in this area aren't you ? There's Malvern, Worcester and Leominster round here too.

Posted 6 months ago #
mboy - Member

Spot on, cheers guys.

Yeah Graham, I'm in Worcester, travel to Kiddy 3 days a week though currently too.

58p per litre and a bill at the end of the month sounds like a proper deal! Starting to like the sound of this... Got my eye on a 1.8l Mondeo with very low milage and a LPG conversion currently, hoping this could be a winner for cheap motoring for my next few years now I'm a student again!

EDIT: Makes me wish I'd still got my old BMW 540i, as that was a hell of a car... Only sold it cos I couldn't afford the fuel for it when I lost my job (that paid for all my fuel milage) at the time.

Posted 6 months ago #
shaxi - Blocked

it seem that a good recommendation ,thank you!

Posted 6 months ago #
maccruiskeen - Member

could be a winner for cheap motoring for my next few years

As much as local supplies of the gas make sure you have a local supplier of parts and servicing for the system itself.

I've also noticed theres a lot of ready converted LPG cars on the market, all with roughly the same milage, all with roughly the same vague faults that the seller can't figure the cause of (and usually the seller is moving the car on after a short period of ownership) and it makes me wonder how well the LPG system has been serviced and maintained in these cars.

It strikes me that, with the exception of local authority fleet vehicles, people who have gone to the extra effort and investment of converting a car aren't going to move it on until the system is beyond economic repair.

Posted 6 months ago #
scruff - Member

Whats the deal with gettig a car converted, such as
how many miles would it take to recoup the conversion cost ?

Posted 6 months ago #
maccruiskeen - Member

complete length of as piece of string question. The thirstier the car is to start with the greater the saving over time...... but the total can still be high because the car is still thirsty, its just thirsty for cheaper fuel.

You then need to ask the question why you're driving the thirsty car if you need to save money- why not buy one thats economical to start with

If you were to convert a car that was already frugal (for the same initial outlay) the payback period for the conversion would be much longer, as you are saving a smaller amount per mile. So you'd need to be doing stella milage for that to be worth while...... Except I'm not sure converted cars run to those kind of milages, the sick sounding ones i come across seem to only have about 100 - 120K on them

Posted 6 months ago #
fisha - Member

Very very very roughly:

gallon petrol ~ £6 ( £1.40 / litre )
gallon of lpg ~ £3 ( £0.70 / litre )

So you're very roughly saving about £3 per gallon. To save £1000, you'd be looking at about 333 gallons of fuel used.

As mentioned above, different cars are going to get different MPG ... So 333 tanks will take you roughly:

mpg = mileage to save £1000
15 = 4995
20 = 6660
25 = 8325
30 = 9990
35 = 11655
40 = 13320
45 = 14985
50 = 16650
55 = 18315
60 = 19980
65 = 21645
70 = 23310
75 = 24975
80 = 26640

you can see that gas guzzler V8's only need about 5k miles to save £1000. Most V8 LPG installs are in the £2000 region, so with about 10 to 15k miles, you've saved the install cost and are then saving money on running cost ... however, you're still having to feed a thirsty car.

My 4.4 V8 is in the 15 - 18 mpg region ... on the LPG setup, I very roughly estimate the fuel costs ( having now re-couperated the install cost ) as being in the same region as if I were running a 28 to 30mpg car.

The more modern diesel equivalents of my car are now running in the same region of mpg ... my next car would likely be a diesel as I'm getting a bit fed up of running to get LPG from miles away now.

Posted 6 months ago #
mboy - Member

Maccruiskeen, what are the parts likely to fail on an LPG system? And if they do fail, how much you looking at to put things right?

I'm aware it's something else to go wrong on a car obviously, but was thinking if I found something low enough milage with a fairly recent conversion (or even better, factory fit) then it should in theory be ok for a few years...

Posted 6 months ago #
jon1973 - Member

Does a litre or LPG drive you the same distance as a litre of unleaded? I assume it was lower for some reason.

Posted 6 months ago #
maccruiskeen - Member

No idea about parts and servicing, I've been put off buying one by the volume of cars available with faults. My point was the car will need servicing and repairing and lots of garages won't be able to help you.

Mpg wise I think you get less milage litre for litre with gas, (and a little les power too) so that muddies the water a little when you try to figure out the payback

Posted 6 months ago #
mboy - Member

Ok cheers, will ask a local fitting station what to look out for I think.

Regarding LPG milage, you get slightly less mpg on gas, about 15-20% less. And you get a minuscule drop in performance on most petrol engines too, less than 5% drop in peak power so I understand. The performance difference is cos petrol engines are designed with petrol in mind as the fuel. Petrol burns quickly, but doesn't have that high an Octane rating, so petrol engines are designed with comparatively low compression ratios but they often rev well beyond 6000rpm. If you were to take a big lazy petrol engine (like an American V8) that only revs to say 5000rpm and up the compression ratio quite a bit, then run it on LPG, it would produce quite a bit more power than it would be able to on petrol, and would probably be more economical too.

Posted 6 months ago #
singletrackmind - Member

Had a Saab 900 2.3 NA on LPG , and a Toyota Carina E. Both were high milage well used cars. Saab was great did 28 mpg on gas , cost me £700 and i sold it for £850. Toyota was a shed and had a rattly bottom end so i sold it for spares and didnt do too badly .
Always try to get an approved installer cert , otherwise you might find it difficult to get cover . Some care , some dont .
Very reliable systems in the cars i had m but both were old style evaporator systems that basically were a gas ring with a variable venturi that sat in the inlet tract , whereas the new ones actuallly inject gas into the inlet manifold. This gets you change state cooling which can be a small advantage .
I had to drive past a garage which has LPG on my way to and from work so it made sense , although the discount on road fuel duty is always suppposed to be ending in the 'next' budget but i have heard that for the last 2 years ...

Posted 6 months ago #
mboy - Member

Well I've taken the plunge so to speak... Got to pick up an LPG converted car in the next few days! Won an ebay auction for a Mondeo with only 38,500 miles, 1.8 petrol, LPG tank in the spare wheel well, service history etc. Not the most glamorous of motors agreed, but for 900 quid you can't go wrong!

Been to check with my local LPG suppliers too this afternoon, there's one just down the road to me, sadly it's only open 8:30-5 Monday to Friday and 8:30-1 on Saturday, but a bit of forward planning and a fill up every week should be ok. And it's only 68.9p a litre, about 8p a litre cheaper than most other places it would seem!

Posted 6 months ago #
don simon - Member

Nice one, I've been having a look at some LPG Land Rovers/Range Rovers.
Keep us up to date on how it goes.

Posted 6 months ago #
MidlandTrailquestsGraham - Member

although the discount on road fuel duty is always suppposed to be ending in the 'next' budget but i have heard that for the last 2 years ...

I've heard it since I converted my Land Rover in 1999.

Posted 6 months ago #
don simon - Member

Slight hijack...
What are the running costs like on the Landy MTG in an MPG and servicing kind of way?

Posted 6 months ago #
v8ninety - Member

MPG on a 3.9 V8 90 is pretty shocking (esp an auto like mine, 16mpg is realistic) anyway, LPG makes it bearable. A KISS principle LPG system is a good idea, easy (cheaper) to troubleshoot should anything go wrong. When it's running well servicing costs are pretty much the same as non converted. Oil stays much cleaner for longer, too.

Worth it for the exhaust note alone, in my book. (mmmmm burble burble)

Posted 6 months ago #
don simon - Member

Ta muchly.
I'm looking at something like this.
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201136414590366/sort/priceasc/usedcars/make/land_rover/page/2/postcode/sy113ef/radius/1501/keywords/lhd?logcode=p

Posted 6 months ago #
v8ninety - Member

Ooof! Bit rich for me, lol. Budget for an equivalent of 25-30mpg I reckon. And make sure you take it for a long test drive, check for bad behaviour on gas and petrol, switching between, sudden wide open throttle from tickover and overrun. Good luck!

Posted 6 months ago #
don simon - Member

25-30!
I'll be looking for weekend bike duties and ocassional North Wales to Madrid jollies with trailer.
Cheers.

Posted 6 months ago #
MidlandTrailquestsGraham - Member

My 3.9 Efi Defender 110 does about 4.5km per litre.
I think that works out about the same as doing 30 - 32 mpg on petrol or diesel.
That's still not very good if you're just looking at fuel economy, but if you take overall running costs, including no depreciation, cheap parts and simple home maintenance, I reckon it works out at less per mile than a modern small car.

Mines just a simple vapouriser and mixer system and has proved 100% reliable. I think you're supposed to overhaul the vapouriser every so often. I've done mine, new diaphragm etc., once in 12 years.
The modern gas injection systems are a bit more complex and would probably need professional help to get set up and working with the car's own petrol injection system.

What V8Ninety said as well, after 5000km the oil is a light brownish yellow.
And the exhaust note with tubular stainless manifolds.

Posted 6 months ago #
don simon - Member

Food for thought, cheers.
EDIT: That's not too bad when considering the cost of LPG.

Posted 6 months ago #
flow - Member

Got me looking at LPG Range Rovers now!

Posted 6 months ago #
don simon - Member

You know you want to.

a snip at....

Posted 6 months ago #
flow - Member

Lol I couldn't that shape, P38 I was thinking.

Posted 6 months ago #
mboy - Member

My 3.9 Efi Defender 110 does about 4.5km per litre.
I think that works out about the same as doing 30 - 32 mpg on petrol or diesel.
That's still not very good if you're just looking at fuel economy, but if you take overall running costs, including no depreciation, cheap parts and simple home maintenance, I reckon it works out at less per mile than a modern small car.

REALLY wish I still had my old E34 BMW 540i now, and converted it to run on gas. I used to average 24mpg on petrol in that (surprisingly economical actually), so could stomach 18-20 on lpg with it being half the price I reckon. That and it was totally depreciation proof (at £1500 it was worth more broken for parts!), and spare parts were very plentiful and cheap. I'd even just picked up a very nearly new full stainless exhaust system I had fitted just before I sold it, and it sounded glorious! Even better than any Rover V8 I can tell you...

286bhp, 0-60 in 6 seconds, 155mph limited top speed, full leather, 6 speed manual box, etc etc... GOD I miss that car...

Posted 6 months ago #
singletrackmind - Member

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GORGEOUS-2002-BMW-540I-AUTO-SPORT-SILVER-LPG-CONVERSION-69p-L-fuel-economic-V8-/320797607215?pt=Automobiles_UK&hash=item4ab107052f

Just for mboy

Posted 6 months ago #
mboy - Member

singletrackmind, that's an Auto... Poor shout!

Here was my car... Just before going on a trackday, and then on it...

Was the perfect bike car too, rear seats folded totally flat, and you can get a bike in without even taking the wheels off!

Posted 6 months ago #
flow - Member

Hmmm, stop it before you make me buy another car with a massive engine.

Posted 6 months ago #
singletrackmind - Member

I used to do loads of trackdays in a modded Mazda 323 4x4 turbo .
Bit rich for me now , although with the current price of 330ci beemers I am very tempted . I reckon its a £400 day out tho , if you include the cost of towing with a 4ltr Land cruiser to and from , plus tyres / brakes / super plus etc .
Think I will stick to go carting once a month..

Posted 6 months ago #
mboy - Member

Well, picked up the Mondeo today, driven it back and around here a bit, 130 miles so far, and it's all ok. Seems to run just as sweetly on LPG as petrol, which to be fair is smooth rather than fast, as 113bhp and less torque in a 1300kg is not that much. Cruises well though, and supposedly will do 35mpg combined and 40mpg on the motorway, which running on gas at 68.9p a litre makes it damned cheap.

I reckon I'll save the £900 purchase price of the car in fuel alone inside the first 12 months!

Posted 6 months ago #