- This topic has 60 replies, 26 voices, and was last updated 10 years ago by njee20.
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Low-end electronic shifting
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ir_banditoFree Member
Now its starting to become mainstream/accepted on high-end (road) bikes, how soon will it be before we start to see Di2
a) on mountain bikes
b) at mid-range, eg Tiagra/105, or Deore/SLX/XTWill it ever get on proper low- end bikes, replacing Alivio/Acera?
What do you think?
Started to think about it as I’m looking for ultra-low effort gear changing solutions for my son’s Islabike as he just hasn’t got the strength yet to twist the grip-shift against the mech spring tension (thumbshifter on order..)
trail_ratFree Memberas long as they keep the mechanical – i dont care.
Have you seen DI2 – its horrible.
i nearly had a steal of a price on an ultegra di2 equipped roadie ….. couldnt bring my self to do it. It looks gopping
ir_banditoFree MemberI don’t think mechanical systems will ever go, but I can see electronic becoming more popular and cheaper with it. Whether it ever gets down to a comparable price will be interesting to see.
Mister-PFree MemberI know when Ultegra Di2 was released there weren’t electronic parts such as motors that were cheap enough to trickle it down to 105 level. Everything that could be reduced from Dura Ace to Ultegra had been done. This may change as the electronics industry moves forward pretty quickly.
D0NKFull MemberDue to shocking cable routing on FSers, mud and an even more shocking bike TLC regime I quite fancy eleccy shifting. Will need to be SLX/deore prices tho.
oh and I couldn’t give a monkeys what it looks like 🙂
treaclespongeFree MemberHad a quick play with Di2 on a roadie in a shop the other day. Quite impressed although the action of pressing a lever in like a micro switch messed with my head a bit, and maybe not being able to shift more than one each press may be a slight problem for some. As above though, looks awful on the bike, needs to be designed with a seattube battery or something.
flangeFree Memberand maybe not being able to shift more than one each press may be a slight problem for some.
you can have it mapped (similar to a car ECU) so it will do multiple shifts if you hold the button in
thisisnotaspoonFree MemberDA used custom made bits whilst ultegra used off the shelf servo motors etc, hence why it looked a bit ugly.
I can see it trickelying down to 105, maybe even tiagra though I doubt it as by that point the performance increace of going to 105 would be far cheeper and probably outweigh the Di2 advantages.
Offroad maybe XT? I can’t see many people who’d normaly buy £40 mechs buying £140 mechs and the risk or wrecking them’s far higher. How people buying Di2 actualy do more than 2000miles in a year or go out in conditions where crashing’s likely?
And the market for isla bikes with £1k groupset systems must be even smaller!
tonydFull MemberI would imagine by the time it’s available and affordable (to most) your son might be considerably stronger.
haibikeboyFree Memberdo you think they have released electric shifting because they should or because they could? I personally think its just the next logical marketing step. do you think it will really benefit your riding?
I already have to remember to charge up my phone, laptop, lights etc. don’t need to charge a gear cable though.
Mister-PFree Membermaybe not being able to shift more than one each press may be a slight problem for some
As flange (nice name btw) says you can have it mapped. You can increase or decrease the speed of the shift as well as making the buttons single shift, double shift or press and hold all the way up or down the block.
needs to be designed with a seattube battery or something
There already is one that fits internally, usually in the seatpost.It is the snappily named SM-BTR2.
atlazFree MemberHow people buying Di2 actualy do more than 2000miles in a year
I’d be willing to bet quite a lot of people with it do. I’m sure as it trickles lower though, there will be plenty of commuters with flat Di2 batteries.
flangeFree MemberI’m obviously a bit biased on this front but I don’t think mine is that ugly. And regardless of how it looks, the function is awesome – for a start the self-trimming front mech makes me smile a lot!
It is expensive at the moment, the Mtb conversion stuff massively so. However I think if a higher volume were produced it would bring the costs down significantly, after all its not rocket science. Ultegra stuff whilst not pretty works really well – I’ll be putting some on my next road bike when I can afford it
tonydFull Memberatlaz makes a good point – what happens when the batteries die? No shifting? For me that puts Di2 etc back into the niche category and not suitable for everyday utility type riding (eg commuting).
flangeFree Memberatlaz makes a good point – what happens when the batteries die? No shifting? For me that puts Di2 etc back into the niche category and not suitable for everyday utility type riding (eg commuting).
It takes aaaaaggeess for them to die and you get plenty of warning before they do. Just check the lights on the control unit like you would your bike lights. Stick it on charge for a night, you’re good to go
Mister-PFree Membertonyd, do you forget to put fuel in your car? Or forget to eat? You get plenty of warning you need to do both of those things, the same as you do when a Di2 battery needs charging.
ir_banditoFree MemberInteresting points.
If you’re using it on a commuter, how hard would it be to run off a dynamo hub?the market for isla bikes with £1k groupset systems must be even smaller
I’m a tart like that…
tonydFull Membertonyd, do you forget to put fuel in your car? Or forget to eat?
Sometimes yes!
thisisnotaspoonFree MemberI’d be willing to bet quite a lot of people with it do
My perception (rightly or wrongly) is it’s bought by ATGNI / MAMIL types, based on a very small number of bikes I’ve seen with it anyway.
Solution looking for a problem IMO. Ditto the dynamo idea, it (apparetly) takes months to use the battery, Li-ion batteries actualy like being discharged and charged rather than being left on float so trickle chargeing from a dynamo might actualy shortern their life!
wartonFree Memberwhat happens when the batteries die? No shifting? For me that puts Di2 etc back into the niche category and not suitable for everyday utility type riding (eg commuting).
If you let it get to that point, after the many warnings you get, the front shifter will stop first, meaning you have a 100 or so miles on the rear shifter only.
word is you need to charge it 4 or 5 times a year.
SuperficialFree Memberhttp://news.fortheriders.com.au/2012/10/matt-yeti-asr-5-carbon-with-di2
Di2 is irritating. I can’t see the benefits and yet I want it.
treaclespongeFree MemberFrom what I have heard when the batteries start dying it will shift you into the small front ring and as warton says, will allow you the rest of the shifts on the rear but there is an inline LED panel with battery life displayed so cant see it being a real problem. Something like 600 shifts per charge.
tonydFull Memberwarton (and flange) – thanks.
My perception (rightly or wrongly) is it’s bought by ATGNI / MAMIL types, based on a very small number of bikes I’ve seen with it anyway.
Mine too (almost certainly wrongly), although I wouldn’t state it publicly.
I had a conversation with a chap a week or so ago who made a point of telling me that money is no object and that he spent £5k on his road bike, which is the first bike he’s had since he was a kid (he’s mid 40s). Told me how great Di2 is, although given he hadn’t owned a bike for 30 years I’m not sure what he was comparing it to 🙂
(I’ve no doubt it is very good and would likely jump at the chance of owning some)
cookeaaFull MemberTrickle-down does just happen, and yes with ‘leccy shifting you will inevitably exchange one set of compromises for another, but people are perhaps assuming it will be more effort to look after, I’m not sure why, you’ll have a battery to keep charged and the same chain, rings and sprockets to monitor for wear and tear and that’s about it, no need to change a wiring loom every six month just for the fun of it…
In terms of how far down the market Di2 will filter that’s an interesting question, ultimately I think it will come down to whether or not shimano believe the target audience can be arsed with battery charging…
BSOs; forget it, for basic Acera group level “Chuck in the shed and forget for 6 out of 12 months” type MTBs I don’t think electronic shifting would be a major selling point, even if you could manufacture it at a low enough price point, DA/Ultegra/105/XT/XTR level, obviously there is a market for those, Tigra/SLX maybe that’s kit targeted at price conscious regular rider/maintainer of bikes, they’ll probably take a while ot trickle it down to this level though…
Deore to Sora level is where it becomes marginal, Deore picked up Dynasys pretty quickly but I suspect that was a cost of goods / volume related decision, and it it was easier to produce an extra 10 speed group and do an early “face lift” for Deore than maintain one 9 speed group in amongst all their “proper” MTB goups…
TBH where you hit the Lower-Mid end groupsets I would expect Shimano not to bother trickling Di2 down any further, Deore and Sora probably won’t get Di2.
I’d also expect them to start ditching the mechanical variant of their higher priced groupsets after a while, DuraAce and XTR Di2 will eventually become the only premium option, once they’ve established its reliability, as maintaining support for the mechanical version will just become expensive once ‘leccy shifting adoption has become “normalized” for the customers…
All IMO of course…
D0NKFull Member2000 a year isn’t a lot, (admittedly 2000 on just one bike is a little more tricky) but what was that referring to? Has some component only got a 2k lifespan?
Solution looking for a problem IMO
my gears on FS bikes always work perfectly for one ride then seem to quickly start going wonky. Goretex cables last a lot longer but still eventually suffer. no cables sounds a logical move to me. di2 for road bikes however, I’m not so sure of the advantages.
honourablegeorgeFull MemberSuspect there’ll be some sort of collaborative effort with electronic gearing and suspension sharing a battery – an EI DI2 bike (although probably not RockShox(SRAM) pairing with Shimano).
D0NKFull Memberhonourablegeorge hmm maybe, get fox ctd and dropper and gears and your bars start looking very busy, wireless would help. Think we may be getting to the stage of too many on the fly settings tho.
ir_banditoFree MemberDitto the dynamo idea, it (apparetly) takes months to use the battery, Li-ion batteries actualy like being discharged and charged rather than being left on float so trickle chargeing from a dynamo might actualy shortern their life!
How about no battery then, just the dynamo. You can’t change gear if you’re not moving anyway if you’re using derraileurs, so why not just have a big capacitor to store enough charge for a couple of changes whilst you get up to speed?
E-shifting will certainly offer advantages (no effort shifting, no worries about cable routing etc) but there’s no doubt it’s got disadvantages to overcome too.
cookeaaFull MemberIf it were a truely joined up strategy then yes I can see value in sharing power and signal features with other systems on the bke (suspension control, droppers, etc) while they were at it “The Industry” could agree a set of common connection standards and interfaces, so that the bike you buy in ten years time comes with an integrated bus/wiring looms and there was no need for you to route any cabling internally or externally, quite litterally plug and play components.
Bit fanciful though TBH…
Dynamo? Nah Photvoltaics or kinetic charge generation is where it’s at, who wants a dynamo sapping precious watts…
ir_banditoFree MemberPhotvoltaics
Could cause problems with riding at night. Unless you had the cell in front of your dynamo light 🙂
Do E-bikes use any form of KERS?
There’s at least one dynamo that pulls the magnets out of range when not needed so no drain in power. It wouldn’t be too hard to run a system which has a capcitor charged for a few shifts, when it runs low, it automitcally connects up the dynamo to charge itself back up.
cookeaaFull MemberWell solar cells sort of make sense, I mean bicycles are generally used outside, OK if all you do is night rides then perhaps a wall charger will be needed, but most people do at least ride their bike outside some of the time, no problem supplimenting mains leccy with a bit of renewables for general use…
Sod it, why not mount a mini wind turbine on the bars, turn some of that head-wind into charge for your gear shift, power pack, would work day or night 😉
thisisnotaspoonFree MemberI’d also expect them to start ditching the mechanical variant of their higher priced groupsets after a while, DuraAce and XTR Di2 will eventually become the only premium option, once they’ve established its reliability, as maintaining support for the mechanical version will just become expensive once ‘leccy shifting adoption has become “normalized” for the customers…
Disagree, there’ll always be a big weight (and cost) benifit for going for the mechnical version. Same reason I don’t really see disks catching on.
2000 a year isn’t a lot, (admittedly 2000 on just one bike is a little more tricky) but what was that referring to? Has some component only got a 2k lifespan?
That was kinda what I was implying, I just used 2k/year as an arbritary cut off betwen those who ride a bike occasionaly on sunny days for fun and probably never actualy wear stuff out or crash, and those riding regulalry and probably get through a few hundred quid in wear and tear parts on that bike in a year due to riding in the wet and higher likelyhood of crashing. The former wouldnt care if their shiny new road bike had a £200 mech on it, they’ll never replace it. The latter would baulk at the cost as they know that at some point they’ll likely crash on the shifters and mech.
njee20Free MemberDisagree, there’ll always be a big weight (and cost) benifit for going for the mechnical version.
Except that Dura Ace 9050 Di2 weighs less than 9000 mechanical…
As above though, looks awful on the bike, needs to be designed with a seattube battery or something.
Trek put the battery under the BB shell, you can’t see it unless you’re looking at the bike from the NDS, the mechs look a little clunky, but with proper internal routing it looks fine to me. Mechs aren’t quite as neat admittedly, but not that bad.
The trimming front mech is awesome.
orangeboyFree MemberFor me id buy xtr electronic , te price of the k-edge stuff is just a little to steep at the moment
But as my nice mtb is 1-10 its only battery one shirfyer and rear mechUsed the road stuff a fair bit and seems great esp the auto trim
But for the road I’m a die hard campy fan and they seem a little behind but maybe next yearjiFree MemberI reckon this might be the start of something interesting. The electric shifting will already self correct trim etc, but what if you were to select your ideal cadence, and have the system change gears to match for you? Sort of like cruise control for your bike…
Or link it to a HRM and the bike will shift gears when you are working too hard (or not hard enough).
The next step would be to hack into other people’s gear systems and remotely change their gears for them from across the world. 😀
jivehoneyjiveFree MemberThey’ve already introduced Di2 Alfine… who knows, maybe the dynamo link in is under development…
The next step would be to hack into other people’s gear systems and remotely change their gears for them from across the world.
😆 Thats what the extra government spending on intelligence is going towards~ GCHQ halting cyclists who run red lights 😀
IanMunroFree MemberI reckon this might be the start of something interesting. The electric shifting will already self correct trim etc, but what if you were to select your ideal cadence, and have the system change gears to match for you? Sort of like cruise control for your bike…
Funny you say that as having just bought a DI2 bike, I’ve also bought some 2nd hand DI2 bits of ebay to have a bash at the signal decoding to do that.
On the power front, whilst looking through the patent database for any info in the protocol, I did notice a recent shimano patent for a dynamo built into the lower jockey wheel 🙂PeterPoddyFree Memberhave you seen Di2? It’s horrible
**rubs chin**
Untitled by PeterPoddy, on FlickrNaaaaah. No. It’s not.
D0NKFull Memberthat is fairly gopping peter
But strip it of all the stickers (and put a saddle on it) and I’ll give it a spin.
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