Reading something recently that reminded me about the Lotus Carlton, I remember at the time it caused a lot of controversy as it was a bit bonkers fast for a saloon, and i think there was some high profile speeding cases.

Which made me think – how does it stack up against modern fast saloons – M5 etc?

this is all purely hypothetical conjecture, I’m not wanting to provoke outrage or debate about people ‘making progress’ on public roads.

I reckon it will be rubbish.

Suspension, ABS, Traction control, etc. has moved on massively. I will be a complete handful, but probably great fun. Its poorly tamed RWD, what’s not to like in a retro way.

But it wont stack up against modern stuff.

http://www.evo.co.uk/bmw/5-series/14115/bmw-m5-vs-lotus-carlton

http://bfy.tw/8kpo

I suspect a warm-ish hot hatch would give one a good trouncing, maybe not necessarily on 0-60 (a pretty pointless measure anyway), but else where it would – brakes would be better, grip, more power more of the time.

Modern cars have become too good – they’re just boring to drive. I’d much prefer to drive the Lotus Carlton – I bet its a hoot to drive.

From Wikipedia,

The Lotus Carlton produced 377 bhp (281 kW; 382 PS) and 419 lb·ft (568 N·m) (of which 350 lb·ft (470 N·m) was available from 2000 rpm.) The car was capable of 0–60 mph in 5.2 seconds and achieve 0–100-0 mph in less than 17 seconds. Tall gearing allowed it to achieve approximately 55 mph (89 km/h) in first gear. The Lotus Carlton/Omega held the title of the fastest four-door saloon car for some years.

Weighed 1,663kg. For comparison, a modern Mondeo is listed as 1,455 to 1,703kg. The fastest model I think is a 2 litre chucking out 240PS, 0-60 is 7.9s and top speed is 140mph.

A while ago we re-commissioned a Lotus Carlton for a customer who’d stored it for about ten years. His had been modified to about 550BHP. He asked me to put a few miles on it before exporting it to where he’s now based. I was expecting it to be fast (it was very, very quick), but wasn’t expecting it to drive as nicely as it did. I get to drive lots of expensive, fast, modern cars, most of which leave me cold, but the Carlton was awesome!

“Suspension, ABS, Traction control, etc. has moved on massively”
that might be the problem, its very easy to go very quickly these days. but not always engaging.
Have you noticed how the high end sports saloons have all gone LOUD. to make them a little more exciting?

The Carlton always had nicely balanced handling – fairly clever rear suspension, decent weight distribution, and it’s relatively light compared to more modern equivalents. Add the Lotus factor and I don’t think a modern warm hatch would have a hope. I remember being astounded at how fast it could brake from 120mph when being taken to school in one. Bloody big tyres for the era too, so lots of mechanical grip. And a proper LSD.

Has ABS moved on much? Stability control has, as has traction control (both were unheard of back then). But car ABS isn’t exactly rocket science.

I reckon it will be rubbish.

Suspension, ABS, Traction control, etc. has moved on massively. I will be a complete handful, but probably great fun. Its poorly tamed RWD, what’s not to like in a retro way.

But it wont stack up against modern stuff.

If you ever get the chance to experience one then I urge you to grab it.

You’ll be pleasantly surprised and quite quite impressed.

I well remember reading a road test where the driver took his mum out for a run in it. At one point they were travelling along a tree-lined road, and he had to pull over after his mum started to get upset, just saying “the trees, the trees”.
Asking her what was the problem with the trees, she said “they disappeared!”
While many modern saloons and hot hatches have plenty of poke, and some whizzy do-dads to help keep them under control, the Carlton was a superbly set-up car in the first place, by people who know how to do their job.
I’m pretty sure more than a few drivers of modern cars would find themselves somewhat embarrassed by a well looked-after and setup Carlton.
The same could probably be said of the even older Sunbeam Talbot Lotus, which was a proper competition car.

I drove one years ago when they were fairly new. I was driving quite a lot of quickish cars at the time saphire cosworths, saab turbos, subarus some porsches.
The carlton was one of those cars that when you looked down at the speedo you thought….. no we cant be going that fast. It didnt feel anything like as quck as it was.
The owner told me not to bother with 6th gear much below 90mph.
The thing with it was that the chassis had been engineered by the germans who were using the BMW M5 as the bench mark. The engine was by lotus who knew a bit about power, and all the transmission were from the GM parts bin from the corvette.
It was decent, and probably still reasonable performance by todays standards if a little less refined.
Power though, it had plenty of that.

Ive alwasy lusted after a Talbot sunbeam. Rear drive hot hatch perfect

They were very quick, it was the only car to give my mates Sport Quattro a run for its money but I knew of a 1992 model that failed its 2001 MOT due to excessive rust around the suspension mounts 😕

There was a Jasper Carrot sketch back in the day about how all the Lotus Carltons would end up in the hands of Asian mini cab drivers.

My dad had a white Senator, that thing could shift, and on the motorways everything cleared out of your way sharpish as people assumed it was a police car. Great car, so smooth and comfy, nearly as nice as his Citroen CX.

I didn’t get my hands on the Lotus, just the cooking Carlton. I’d been hired by GM to do some display work at Bruntingthorpe and was asked to pick up four size XL execs in one. I dutifully chauffeured them getting teased about my sedate driving until we turned into the site access road which was done in a drift into spin to reverse, red line, spin to forward, red line, spin to reverse, red line… on a tree-lined road not much wider than the Carlton was long.

The Carlton had a handbrake that worked, many modern “performance cars” don’t have handbrake.

Cougar – Moderator
From Wikipedia,

The Lotus Carlton produced 377 bhp (281 kW; 382 PS) and 419 lb·ft (568 N·m) (of which 350 lb·ft (470 N·m) was available from 2000 rpm.) The car was capable of 0–60 mph in 5.2 seconds and achieve 0–100-0 mph in less than 17 seconds. Tall gearing allowed it to achieve approximately 55 mph (89 km/h) in first gear. The Lotus Carlton/Omega held the title of the fastest four-door saloon car for some years.

Weighed 1,663kg. For comparison, a modern Mondeo is listed as 1,455 to 1,703kg. The fastest model I think is a 2 litre chucking out 240PS, 0-60 is 7.9s and top speed is 140mph.

Those stats for the Carlton are almost the same as those of my new Jag (blatant humble-brag). The Jag is 500kg heavier.

Performance (Manufacturer’s Estimates)
Acceleration 0-60 mph (0-100km/h) seconds: 5.1 (5.3)
Top speed mph (km/h): 155 (250)
Fuel Consumption
Engines
Capacity (cc): 2,995
Maximum Power EEC-PS (kW): 380 (280)
@ rev/min: 6,500
Maximum torque EEC-Nm: 450
@ rev/min.: 4,500
Transmission: 8 Speed
Weight
Kerb Weight (kg): 1,710
Gross vehicle weight (kg): 2,330

The Jaguar is only a 100kgs heavier, the Carlton will only be displaying it’s empty weight.

I don’t think a “warm hatch” (Fiesta ST, Golf Gti) would see what way it went down anything but the twisty B-roads that played to the the smaller cars strength. Uber hatches like the Cupra 290, Focus RS and Golf R would be closer

Its a classic digital vs. analogue car.
The Carlton is most definitely analogue.

Tall gearing allowed it to achieve approximately 55 mph (89 km/h) in first gear

😯

richmtb

I don’t think a “warm hatch” (Fiesta ST, Golf Gti) would see what way it went down anything but the twisty B-roads that played to the the smaller cars strength. Uber hatches like the Cupra 290, Focus RS and Golf R would be closer

Other than a drag race on a dry runway a Focus RS or Golf R would make short work of it. Very similar power to weight ratios but modern low inertia turbos deliver most of their power much lower down in the rev range with little lag. Big old turbos give lots of power but higher up the rev range and not without considerable lag.

I’d take the Carlton on any UK race circuit and expect to get it round quicker than the FWD hatches Focus or Golf.

Edukator

I’d take the Carlton on any UK race circuit and expect to get it round quicker than the FWD hatches Focus or Golf.

A quick Google suggests that VBH lapped Anglesey in the Lotus Carlton at 1:31. She did a 1:32 in the Mk5 147bhp Fiesta ST. Both in the wet. I’d expect the 4wd Focus RS with 345bhp to do better.

Your forgetting one thing, the owner of the Lotus Carlton has much much bigger kahunas…

Edukator – Reformed Troll
I’d take the Carlton on any UK race circuit and expect to get it round quicker than the FWD hatches Focus or Golf.

er, nope.

Even the more cooking hot hatches would murder it in terms of lap time, rock up in an RS/R etc, let alone an current M5 and the poor old carlton wouldn’t even see which way they went (before it boiled it’s brakes and engine trying to keep them in sight)

Thing is, the Lotus Carlton had character, something that is sadly lacking in today’s identikit cars. It needed driving with a lot of respect, 380(ish) bhp, RWD, no ESR,ESP,TC to get you out of trouble when actual skill exceeded perceived skill…

“Suspension, ABS, Traction control, etc. has moved on massively”
that might be the problem, its very easy to go very quickly these days. but not always engaging.
Have you noticed how the high end sports saloons have all gone LOUD. to make them a little more exciting?

And a lot of the noise comes through the hifi I understand.

er, nope.

Even the more cooking hot hatches would murder it in terms of lap time, rock up in an RS/R etc, let alone an current M5 and the poor old carlton wouldn’t even see which way they went (before it boiled it’s brakes and engine trying to keep them in sight)

Er nope. Top end hatches would be quicker for sure but ‘cooking’, nope. Lotus Carlton is tested by Motorsport at 3.3 seconds 50 – 70 which is as quick as a Focus RS. Way faster than a GTi. To leave a car standing, the difference in performance has to be huge.

The Carltons weakness might be in brake fade over x number of laps etc but I would not imagine it getting hammered by many saloons. Comparing like for like even.

I’d still rather have a Lotus Carlton. SEAT FR/Cupras, Golf R’s etc are the new clit cars.

jimjam – Member

A quick Google suggests that VBH lapped Anglesey in the Lotus Carlton at 1:31. She did a 1:32 in the Mk5 147bhp Fiesta ST. Both in the wet. I’d expect the 4wd Focus RS with 345bhp to do better.

While ‘any UK race circuit’ was mentioned the Anglesey circuit is a bloody tight, twisty track I think. Its not really where something like the Lotus Carlton would shine compared to something like the Fiesta ST which would be in it’s element….enough power to be quick and like a roller skate in the corners…
I suspect if you took the Lotus Carlton to somewhere like Snetterton it would be a different story…

Other than a drag race on a dry rmodern low inertia turbos deliver most of their power much lower down in the rev range with little lag. Big old turbos give lots of power but higher up the rev range and not without considerable lag.

Lotus Carlton is at 68% of peak torque at 1500rpm. Golf R at only 57%. Carlton is twin turbo and I think they’re pretty small ones – plus it’s a 3.6 litre 24V six. Even without the turbos it would be producing about 250bhp (with NA friendly compression ratio).

but I would not imagine it getting hammered by many saloons.

Well the actual test comparison linked above said that the M5 could drop it “at will” so lets be fair, there are a few. AMG mercs, S and RS series audis being some.

I was passed by a Lotus Carlton just last week. It was doing about 15mph, in traffic…

When I was younger my neighbour designed the wing mirrors for the lotus Carlton. He got a new one almost before they were available and he constantly had issues with the brakes. No one seemed able to sort the problem out ( whatever it was) so in the end he gave it back.

Lotus Carlton is at 68% of peak torque at 1500rpm. Golf R at only 57%. Carlton is twin turbo and I think they’re pretty small ones – plus it’s a 3.6 litre 24V six. Even without the turbos it would be producing about 250bhp (with NA friendly compression ratio).

Focus RS produces all of its torque 350lb ft/475nm at 2000rpm.

Two for sale here. http://m.carandclassic.co.uk/list/29/carlton/

Maybe someone should buy one and test it for the benefit of us all.

“Xclusiv Motorz”.
yeah…

The power to weight of the Focu/Golf is irrelevent, it’s power those FWD, arse-heavy hatches can’t put down. Weight transfer just leaves them understeering while a RWD is putting down it’s power with the help of weigh transfer and has the other two wheels steering. FWD cars perform well on the track when stripped out and given almost solid rear suspension.

Start a lap of Brands. RWD well get you a couple of car lengths ahead before you turn in blind over the brow and the car goes all floaty as you drift right then find grip, the hatch catches up but the Carlton is powering away again on the exit. The long right-handed hairpin is a proper pain in the arse in a FWD road car. However hard you throw it in, it’s understeering chronically by the apex and you feather the throtle to keep the understeer manageable whilst trying to keep exit speed up. The Carlton can be thrown in and drifted through at an angle that depends on how many laps you have to do before the tyres go off. From the late apex on it’s foot to the floor.

The left hander is more FWD friendly and the more stable FWD cars would be easier to get through cleanly, but the long, long, right back onto the pit straight is another FWD understeer special – unless you’ve thrown out all the trim and fitted near solid rear springs. The Carlton could be four-wheel drifted through it with full throttle as it opens onto the straight.

I can’t load videos so maybe this has bindun but VB-H has a ?5th Gear? video on YT of her comparing the Carlton to the VXR8.