The thing about a lot of brands, is that their products are way overhyped to begin with (just look at what Nike etc spend on advertising), and there is a huge mark-up from production cost and retail price. Many brands are initially sold at a grossly inflated price, in order for price reductions to appear like a fantastic bargain. But this relies on a gullible market who will believe the hype. The cycling industry is full of it; mostly cheap Chinese made, average quality at best, sold at ‘premium’ prices, to people with relatively high levels of disposable income. Rapha in particular, is an excellent example of this. Mainly very average Chinese made stuff sold at a relatively very high price, to make people think it’s a truly ‘premium’ product. Whilst some of it is quite good, a lot of it is average; stuff I’ve had has been no better than other less expensive brands, but then I’d bought it in a ‘sale’ where it appeared an excellent bargain! 😆 😳

Fact is that most people don’t really know what ‘good quality’ actually is; unless you have stuff hand-made for you, or had stuff made in the UK before the 80s for example, you probably won’t have anything as a benchmark of quality. There’s really very little about, clothing wise, that gets close these days. And what there is, is very expensive, so the vast majority of people won’t have knowledge of such things. The average punter in SD isn’t going to know much about genuine ‘quality’*, let’s be honest.

*Generalising I know, but pretty much true I’d say.

She was much better before she started doing that Bake Off programme.

When I was in business, I always reckoned the quick way to assess an unknown product was to find out how that business treated its staff

.

This holds a lot of water.

It’s about being bothered.

I’ve always done quality, even if I couldn’t justify or afford. Girlfriend treated me to Sat Bains for my 40th – it was my first experience of such a thing. The labour intensity must be bonkers to produce such detail, loved it.

I love quality brands but only if the products stand scrutiny: Turner, Assos, Enve etc. I’m not loaded I just prioritise my spending. Hence I lease a SKODA Yeti.

But I do think good products with strong brands and an eye on ethics are worth their weight in gold. They don’t usually have huge marketing campaigns either.

I’ve always been averse to cheap sports clothing. Sportsdirect are the epitome of this. And unfortunately for me only a few miles away. But they employ a lot of people. I here mixed things about working for them…

People know the price of everything and the value of nothing, says a decent friend of mine.

Planet-X / On-One trying their best to emulate SD – buy the goodwill for a redundant brand like Titec, Tomac, Viner, Holdsworth and buy some cheap, generic products from the Far East in an attempt to pass them off as premium product. These businesses now operate using a minimum wage, zero-hours workforce that can only survive on Government-subsidised benefits simply as a means to stuff the pockets of fat-cats like Mike Ashley who ride rough-shod over corporate governance. They’re no better than the guy selling hooky gear down your local market – at least they’re not trying to make your believe they’re a legitimate business.

Mainly very average Chinese made stuff*

I think, as western consumers living by and large ignorantly of how other countries have developed over the last 25-30 years, we all have in built preconceptions and prejudice. We could all do well to perhaps educate and familiarise ourselves with how companies like KTC (Rapha’s manufacturer, for instance) actually operate.

*not having a go at you directly Clodhopper, just using your words.

The quality of Merrell stuff doesn’t seem as good as it once was. I notice that SD have a lot of Merrell footwear on their site now.

I hope Mike Ashley hasn’t gobbled up that brand as well. Assuming MA has acquired this brand, the quality won’t be any better than his £15 to £20 Gelert offerings so there’s not a lot of point in forking out four times more on the Merrell stuff IMO.

“I think, as western consumers living by and large ignorantly of how other countries have developed over the last 25-30 years, we all have in built preconceptions and prejudice. We could all do well to perhaps educate and familiarise ourselves with how companies like KTC (Rapha’s manufacturer, for instance) actually operate.

*not having a go at you directly Clodhopper, just using your words.”

It’s nice that Rapha have a warm, fluffy press statement about how it’s products are made, but it’s just part of their marketing spiel. Rapha, like so many other manufacturers, have goods made in China because it’s much more profitable. End of. And their stuff isn’t mostly any better than goods costing a lot less from other brands. Having owned all manner of stuff from the cheapest to some really quite expensive kit, I can tell actual quality from marketing guff. I have absolutely no issue with ‘Chinese made stuff’, indeed some of it is very good quality these days (and an increasing amount of UK/Western made stuff is poor quality).

Personally, I wouldn’t buy Rapha again, discount or no. Because I know that there is better quality to be had, or much cheaper for the same function. But if others want to buy into the ‘brand’, go ahead.

I hope Mike Ashley hasn’t gobbled up that brand as well. Assuming MA has acquired this brand, the quality won’t be any better than his £15 to £20 Gelert offerings so there’s not a lot of point in forking out four times more on the Merrell stuff IMO.

If they did then they wouldn’t be selling them at more or less RRP. For example Moab Vents are £67 on SD. If they started having labels on them saying “WAS £89.99 NOW £19.99”, then something will be amiss.

FWIW, Merrell is owned by Wolverine. who also own HushPuppies/Cat/Saucony etc.

The current brands/rights SD own are:

Airwalk
British Knights
Campri
Carlton
Donnay
Dunlop
Everlast
Firetrap
Gelert
GoldDigga
Hot Tuna Clothing
Kangol
Karrimor
LA Gear
Lonsdale
Miss Fiori
Muddyfox
Nevica
No Fear (outside North America)
Slazenger
Sondico
SoulCal
USA Pro
Voodoo Dolls

and trade as:

CyclesDirect.com
Field & Trek
Firetrap
Gelert
Heatons
Lillywhites
MegaValue.com[43]
SheRunsHeRuns
SportsDirect.com – internet and high street retail.
Sweatshop
USC
European Golf

Personally, I wouldn’t buy Rapha again, discount or no. Because I know that there is better quality to be had, or much cheaper for the same function. But if others want to buy into the ‘brand’, go ahead.

What would be your go to? At the moment in my assorted wardrobe my goto road tops are Rapha, the cut is good, material nice, the feel is good and better than the others. As for MTB Morvelo is currently winning, great tops. I’m happy to buy kit that is good and lasts, I’ve still got 10 year old shorts in there that refuse to die!!

Does devaluation mean mass market though?
Eg Berghaus were classy kit up until the early 90’s then every chav and his dog started using it. Ditto North Face and now Rab.

I’ve held for a while now that North Face are a fashion brand these days rather than premium outdoor wear. Which is a shame, I’ve bought quite a bit of their stuff in the past.

Time was, you could use price as an indication of quality. But that’s just not true any more, buying anything outside of reviews / recommendations is often a gamble.

I still maintain that North Face and Berghaus still make decent kit, you just have to pay for it. Or not if you shop in the end of season sales like I do 🙂

Yes, they did realise they could drop the ‘robustness’/technical ability of some stuff and bang it out to a different, and lucrative market who wanted the label, but that shouldn’t denigrate all their range.

I think some of the TNF hate is built on snobbishness.

I think some of the TNF hate is built on snobbishness.

They still do a technical range, the point there was a split was when the designers left and started Mtn Hardware which kind of replaced them as a go to tech brand for a while. Problem with (proper really) technical kit is it’s not really pub wear! Berghaus had the Extreme 8000 range ages back which was there Mountain Stuff most do both these days just you won’t find the good stuff in the regular places.

Ah, I was really enjoying reading this:

I’ve always done quality, even if I couldn’t justify or afford. Girlfriend treated me to Sat Bains for my 40th – it was my first experience of such a thing. The labour intensity must be bonkers to produce such detail, loved it.

I love quality brands but only if the products stand scrutiny: Turner, Assos, Enve etc.

Until you said:

Hence I lease a SKODA Yeti.

And

It’s about being bothered.

If any company and brand isn’t bothered then it’s VW group. Any thoughts about their complete lack of corporate responsibility over emissions? “A couple of rogue engineers” indeed.

Golf owner and Octavia on order here, BTW. But at least they’re currently cheap for the perceived quality. 😉

TNF is still good quality kit in the USA to be fair.

Any thoughts about their complete lack of corporate responsibility over emissions?

Uh.. they are sorting it out. The engineers comment was to point out that the board didn’t plan such a thing. Which might even be true, if you can get past your cynicism…?

And yes TNF do make proper outdoor gear as well. You can hardly blame them for entering a market as lucrative as fashion gear, can you?

FWIW I wear merrells as they produce a trainer without padding (waterpro) so my sweaty feet can breathe all year round. For a while now (12 months or so) I feel their sizing has changed a smidge (narrower) and the soles seem to wear quicker and fitting fall apart faster. And this is at 55-70 quid range.

So when I spotted a pair of more “fashiony” ones in SD at 28 qui I thought “why not?” and punted for a pair. They seem to be lasting better than the more expensive ones…

Not sure what that shows but I also have a mate involved in the supply chains of these big discounters and his stories about the rules and how they are circumvented are very amusing!

if you can get past your cynicism…?

Yeah sure. As an owner of one of those cars I know what they’re doing. Have you had one of the letters? Work with many German companies? Understand just how it would be possible for this to happen across continents? Chortle.

“What would be your go to? “

Hmm, I tend to buy stuff when I find something I really like, rather than when I ‘need’ it. I don’t look at the brand tbh. I’ve bought a few Rapha items in sales, because they seemed ok, but I’ve had other stuff that’s functioned/lasted as well if not better, and often cost less. This includes stuff from Decathlon, so I’m no brand snob! 😆

North Face: my wife’s TNF hiking shoes well outlasted my Merrells (bought on the same day). And she’s probably worn hers a fair bit more. I have an older pair of Merrell shoes, which have lasted extremely well. Maybe Merrell quality just isn’t what it once was.

had stuff made in the UK before the 80s for example

I think you’re looking through rose tinted glasses here. UK manufacturing in the 60’s and 70’s was not exactly noted for its quality control. Yes, there were undoubtedly some quality manufacturers but I suspect no more than there are now.

Planet-X / On-One trying their best to emulate SD – buy the goodwill for a redundant brand like Titec, Tomac, Viner, Holdsworth and buy some cheap, generic products from the Far East in an attempt to pass them off as premium product.

I think although Planet X have stated their admiration for SD there is a small but crucial difference between SD’s model and theirs.

Issues of quality aside (and traditionally consistency of quality was what a ‘brand’ was about) with each brand SD have acquired the products they produce are at least superficially similar to the products that brand produced latterly – the Karrimor branded items are outdoors gear, the Slazenger branded items are sports wear, the Airwalk stuff is skate/fashionwear etc.

PX just slap stickers on stuff- their own brand, Viner’s Brand, Holdsworth’s brand all on obviously the same set of frames. It would be like SD only making one generic shoe and just sticking 20 different labels on them. There would be some sense in PX’s brand acquisition strategy if they applied a brand to a particular family of products but it seems like they just throw a job lot of stickers into a warehouse full of frames.

“I think you’re looking through rose tinted glasses here. UK manufacturing in the 60’s and 70’s was not exactly noted for its quality control. Yes, there were undoubtedly some quality manufacturers but I suspect no more than there are now.”

Far more stuff was made in the UK than we see in our shops now. And the quality was, generaly, better. I know; I was there. 😉

Yes, there was also crap around, but the crap got replaced by much cheaper Chinese made crap, which drove the bar down so low, it became economically unviable to manufacture clothing in the UK.

I’m actually looking at a jacket I own, right now. I think it’s from the ’60s or early ’70s. I am not the original owner. 😆 It has a ‘Mister Byrite’ label in it. Remember them? A high street chain selling cheap stuff, much of it crap. But they did once make some decent stuff too, and even though it was at the lower end of the market, it was still ok. This jacket is far better quality than anything you’ll find in Top Shop or Primark, the modern equivalents.

Far more stuff was made in the UK than we see in our shops now. And the quality was, generaly, better.

Was that the 60s and 70s when buying your first washing machine was a big deal, and people had to rent tellies cos they cost so much?

Yes it was Molgrips. Halcyon days…

Those washing machines would outlast any of the ‘breaks down one day beyond the end of it’s warranty period’ crap you get now. 😡

I’ve bought a few Karrimor items for running – shorts, tops etc. They have survived training plus used them for several OCR races. Always have come up looking more or less like new, and seem to hold up really well to being soaked, plastered in mud and dragged over walls, ropes, etc.

Ths waters become muddied somewhat when you concede that the ‘quality’ brands are often following comparable manufacturing strategies to those of the ‘cheap Chinese crap’ variety ..

Those washing machines would outlast any of the ‘breaks down one day beyond the end of it’s warranty period’ crap you get now

It’s odd how people have different memories of these things. Mine is that things, washing machines, cars, whatever, where always breaking down or needing to be repaired. My family had a regular washing machine repair man, he was constantly busy.

Where as now cars routinely get 100k miles on the clock without even a stutter and 200k is perfectly feasible, a washing machine will last 5 years without fault and I can buy good clothing for very little money that is many times better than the stuff I’d by 10 years ago.

If any company and brand isn’t bothered then it’s VW group.

Ah well – I’m not perfect, but I have to be honest as like most I’m not a monk – and I’ve never put the environment up there as my main concern. Labour exploitation as usually been at the front for me.

Purchasing is always going to be full of contradictions if you’re concerned about corporate responsibility.

I have come to learn thought that there is a cheap Chinese crap with exploited labour and half-decent stuff produced in better factories. Is this the best we can do though?

I used to do the ethical consumer mag, but it just got too tricky to buy anything. Even the CO-OP was on a boycott list due to supplies from Israel.

It’s difficult having a consensus.

I’m a big fan of the karrimor Duma 2 trainers, and apart from squash gear its pretty much all I would buy from sports direct.

Not for running or anything, just for general wearing about. The fit is great, super comfy, and only £20. Can’t argue with that.

I think Salomon trainers are going a bit iffy.

Back in the day they did nothing but quality stuff.

Now they appear to have 2 distinct ranges.

Cheap and nasty at the top end of cheap and nasty stuff

or good stuff that has got more expensive.

I just bought this:

Expensive cycle pouch!

It’s the kind of thing you could buy for about a tenner here. Company seems good at what they do, made in SF, and very well designed. Most people aren’t going to get beyond the price though.

What’s New Balance stuff like? I saw that programme the other night & didn’t realise their factory was in Cumbria, in fact I didn’t realise it was in the U.K.

Most people aren’t going to get beyond the price though.

*Raises hand*

What’s New Balance stuff like? I saw that programme the other night & didn’t realise their factory was in Cumbria, in fact I didn’t realise it was in the U.K.

They’re pretty good although I’m not sure how much of their range is actually made in the UK – and of that slice, how much of it ‘built from scratch’ as opposed to ‘assembled’ if you see what I mean…

It’s odd how people have different memories of these things. Mine is that things, washing machines, cars, whatever, where always breaking down or needing to be repaired. My family had a regular washing machine repair man, he was constantly busy.
Where as now cars routinely get 100k miles on the clock without even a stutter and 200k is perfectly feasible, a washing machine will last 5 years without fault and I can buy good clothing for very little money that is many times better than the stuff I’d by 10 years ago.

I think the thing we forget is that we’re a significantly richer country now than we were in the 70s/80s. There used to be a pressure to buy less and buy well because people couldn’t easily afford to have to replace or repair stuff and when the need came we repaired stuff rather than replaced. Thats a big reason why people rented TVs and particular VCRs – because they were expensive and often unreliable – I remember our VCR being on the fritz almost constantly.

Now people can afford to just buy carelessly- thats all the more because we have the sense that things aren’t built to last or will rapidly become obsolete which sort of becomes self-forefilling – so we buy cheap knowing we can afford to buy twice. Even the places where goods like TVs are positioned changes the sense of value we place on them – now that TVs for sale in supermarkets that pretty much redefines physically large, several hundred pound items as perishables.

So paradoxically we buy cheap crap because we can so easily afford it. If we were more financially straightened we’d feel more pressure to buy better quality.

“So paradoxically we buy cheap crap because we can so easily afford it”

Or can get instant credit…

Now people can afford to just buy carelessly- thats all the more because we have the sense that things aren’t built to last or will rapidly become obsolete which sort of becomes self-forefilling – so we buy cheap knowing we can afford to buy twice. Even the places where goods like TVs are positioned changes the sense of value we place on them – now that TVs for sale in supermarkets that pretty much redefines physically large, several hundred pound items as perishables.

Do you not think a lot of that is due to the constant rate of change we have these days? Mostly driven my the marketing spiel I have to add.

Electronic goods, especially TVs seem to be almost out-of-date when you carry then out of the shop – 1080, HD, 4K – people don’t buy to keep them for years these days. Suppose it’s a bit like bikes, 26″, 1 1/8″ steerer, threaded bbs etc.

If you ignore the RRP and judge things on the price you pay then I’m more than happy with the few Karrimor items I’ve bought recently

Yup. People seem to want cut price and high quality. It can’t be done. My mantra is “Value for money” as opposed to “Cheap as chips”.

So paradoxically we buy cheap crap because we can so easily afford it. If we were more financially straightened we’d feel more pressure to buy better quality.

I’m not so sure. The goods we (I?) bought back in the day were more expensive but also worse. And by worse I mean not as good at what I bought them for and less reliable. So it feels like I buy stuff for less and it’s better quality all round.

Well, it does to me anyway.

Even the places where goods like TVs are positioned changes the sense of value we place on them – now that TVs for sale in supermarkets that pretty much redefines physically large, several hundred pound items as perishables.

they are cheap now though!

just done a quick google. You can get a tv that I would describe as bloody enormous in Tesco for £180. According to the Beeb, a colour tv in 1985 was £220. Or adjusted for inflation, £603 in today’s money.

That’s a huge difference IMO, and possibly part of the reason that people don’t break into houses and rob the telly so much any more…

My family had a regular washing machine repair man, he was constantly busy.

We had a TV repair man we were on first name terms with back in the 70’s. And we along with many others rented a TV not just because of the initial cost but the constant need to get it fixed.