London vs the rest of the UK, current situation...

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London vs the rest of the UK, current situation...

115 posts & 50 voices | Started 1 year ago by brooess | Latest reply from bravohotel8er

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ourmaninthenorth - Member

The City generates huge amounts of tax revenue and is a massive contributor to the nation's GDP

Just because it does, doesn't mean it should.

You know when, after a football match and the manager of the losing side is interviewed and tries to paint a rosy picture by saying that "inspite of us letting eight goals in, we deserved to win", the same hubristic mentality exists in the City - lawyers look at their banker mates getting paid a fortune and think that they too deserve to be paid vast sums of money.

The whole of the City justifies its vast remuneration on the basis that it thinks it deserves it.

Not a good enough argument.

Posted 1 year ago #
PeterPoddy - Member

Oh God here we go...

...I'm a Racist.

There, I've said it.

I couldn't agree more. Not ever. You're ALWAYS right. We all know this.....

Posted 1 year ago #
trailmonkey - Member

Anyway you are wrong, look:

National Media Museum
National Exhibition Centre
National Space Centre
National Railway Museum
National Motor Museum
National Motorcycle Museum
National Museum of Flight
National Football Museum

None of these are in London.

Wow, really impressive, throw us a few bones why don't you

National Ballet ?
National Gallery ?
National (Britsh) Museum ?
National (recognised) War Memorial ?
National Football Stadium ?
National Rugby Stadium ?
Venue for all State occasions ?

London: Massive tourist destination

Well share it out a bit and the rest of the country might benefit too

Posted 1 year ago #
molgrips - Member

OMITN I don't think they are talking about the personal remuneration of the workers involved. It's what the industry does for business in the UK as a whole.

Posted 1 year ago #
Pimpmaster Jazz - Member

Well share it out a bit and the rest of the country might benefit too

The Romans tried but the Scots fought them off, happy in their barbaric ways.

Posted 1 year ago #
grum - Member

So basically our whole economy is so reliant on these rich greedy tossers in the City that we have to bend over backwards to help them keep getting richer at the expense of everyone else. Yay! We are now apparently returning to Victorian levels of rich/poor divide in this country.

How do other countries manage that don't rely purely on a greedy and reckless financial sector?

Posted 1 year ago #
binners - Member

How do other countries manage that don't rely purely on a greedy and reckless financial sector?

I'm afraid that other economies, ie Germany, are rather primative. They do a quaint little thing called 'making' stuff

Don't worry. It'll never catch on. The over-powerful financial sector and its friends in government are ensuring that never happens here

Posted 1 year ago #
ourmaninthenorth - Member

molgrips - sorry, looking back I wasn't clear in where I was getting to:

The argument of the importance of the City to our economy is the tax take (relatively largely personal, rather than corporation, as the corporates all do deals with HMRC on how much/little they're going to pay). When challenged, the next level of argument is "well, all the talent will leave".

the talent is only paid what it is because it can be and, since the Big Bang, we've had a financial sector (and the peripheral activities - accountancy, law, etc.) living high off the largely unregulated hog.

I'm afraid that other economies, ie Germany, are rather primative. They do a quaint little thing called 'making' stuff

Evan Davies made an interesting summation of the view that we really do need to make stuff AND save money. Not out of some antiquated sense of duty to labour markets of old, or avoiding debt, but because that combination (as seen so succesfully in Germany) forces the domestic producers to export. Whereas we in Britain don't save and seem addicted to imports.

The argument in favour of manufacturing was grossly damaged by the behaviour of trades unions prior to the Thatcher administrations - they gave British manufacturing a bad name. This was worsened by a workforce that was not, for whatever reason, encourage to innovate much more than we did. I wonder if that wasn't some post-colonial hangover we still had (and, to an extent, still do) that Bristish is inherently best. Thatcher did the rest....

So now, we don't amke anything on a large scvale. Sure, we do have manufacturing, but it's specialist and usually high tech/high value. I bet most of that is exported, but it just doesn't have the economic clout of large scale production or an economy based on financial services - FFS, are we destined to fiddle about selling each other services?

Posted 1 year ago #
randomjeremy - Member

Christ there are some bitter people on here with economic nous learned, I can only assume, via The Sun.

Posted 1 year ago #
binners - Member

Could you elaborate on that RJ?

Surely the Sun, as a Murdoch/Tory mouthpiece, would have us believe that we're living in a land of milk and honey, where the streets are literally paved with gold? All thanks to the selfless work of George, Dave and their friends in the city? And despite the best efforts of Gordon and now Red Ed and his pesky union friends, to impose communism on us and take us back to the late 70's?

Posted 1 year ago #
molgrips - Member

I'm afraid that other economies, ie Germany, are rather primative. They do a quaint little thing called 'making' stuff

Why is making stuff intrinsically better than doing stuff for other people?

Posted 1 year ago #
trailmonkey - Member

because it traditionally employs more people, which is a better thing for society ?

Posted 1 year ago #
ourmaninthenorth - Member

Kindly enlighten us, RJ, how selling services to ourselves alone is sufficient to grow an economy that has at least some self reliance built into it?

Posted 1 year ago #
grum - Member

Why is making stuff intrinsically better than doing stuff for other people?

It's not even doing stuff for other people - it's just gambling on a massive scale, knowing that when they mess it up they will get bailed out, again.

And if we had more manufacturing, our economy would be now getting a major boost from exports thanks to a weak pound.

Christ there are some bitter people on here with economic nous learned, I can only assume, via The Sun.

You could at least have picked the Mirror or something.

Posted 1 year ago #
Moses - Member

Making stuff is intrinsically better because it can be exported. Most service jobs can't. Hairdressers? Lawyers? They depend upon contact. Yes, the city earns money from abroad but the service roles that are not location dependent are easily lost, hence the outsourcing of IT and call centres. Many service roles are essentially parasitic, there are basically 3 ways to create measurable wealth, you can dig stuff out of the ground, grow stuff, or make stuff out of the things you've got from the ground.

The city's tax burden is only an artifact of the high salaries. If I took 10% of the salary of everyone i came into contact with I'd pay a huge amount of tax. It doesn't mean that I'm adding value to the economy.

Posted 1 year ago #
molgrips - Member

It's not even doing stuff for other people - it's just gambling on a massive scale

Isn't most of it making money for other people, don't you, and simply taking a cut? So your pension fund, your mortgage, your ISA, that kind of thing?

Many service roles are essentially parasitic, there are basically 3 ways to create measurable wealth, you can dig stuff out of the ground, grow stuff, or make stuff out of the things you've got from the ground

Hmm, not sure about this. If you run a burger van in the carpark of Nissan Sunderland, are you not also making money from the car business? Sure it's dependent on the car industry but the car industry is just as dependent on external factors - people buying cars.. most of whom probably work in the service industry anyway.

If I took 10% of the salary of everyone i came into contact with I'd pay a huge amount of tax. It doesn't mean that I'm adding value to the economy

If you used that money to invest in new businesses then you would...

Posted 1 year ago #
grum - Member

Isn't most of it making money for other people, don't you, and simply taking a cut? So your pension fund, your mortgage, your ISA, that kind of thing?

Eh?

Take a look at this - a perfect example of reckless financial speculation destabilising economies - banned in the US, Japan, Brazil - but guess what, the Tories are against a ban, presumably because their mates in the city have told them so.

A committee of MEPs has voted in favour of restricting the practice of "naked" short selling.

Short-sellers usually borrow shares or bonds, sell them, then buy them back when the stock falls - pocketing the difference.

"Naked" short-selling is when a trader sells financial instruments he has not yet borrowed.

A new directive places conditions on the use of credit defaults swaps (CDS) - a form of government debt insurance.

The vote was taken by the European Parliament's Monetary and Economic Affairs Committee.

Under the new rules those traders who want to "short" a CDS would have to own the underlying government bond before they could sell it.

Some MEPs argue that the practice of naked short selling exacerbated the financial crisis, with the borrowing costs of countries like Greece being driven up by "speculation" on government debt.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12670943

But it's all fine, let's just let them carry on doing whatever they want, because there's nothing else left.

Posted 1 year ago #
poppa - Member

Also manufacturing is more likely to use low skilled or unskilled labour at some level, which is probably benficial to society since there are always likely to be some people who didn't go through higher/further education.

Or to put it another way, don't put all your eggs in one basket. And then set fire to all your other baskets.

Posted 1 year ago #
binners - Member

The bottom line here is that unless the banking/gambling industry is fundamentally restructured then they WILL bankrupt this country. Its just a case of when. Do you really think we can afford another bale out like the last one? Because they'll take us there. We're en route already

The sector is now massively emboldened by the knowledge that the government believes them 'too big to fail' and will effectively underwrite ANY level of loss with taxpayers money.

They now know also that the government has bottled it and is not seriously proposing any further regulation or reform. Their lobbying worked

This is like handing the keys back to a drunk driver after he's caused a huge pile-up, then asking if he might like a bigger car this time? Maybe an articulated lorry? Oh... and here's another bottle of whiskey too.

Its insanity and is busy creating the perfect financial storm. The next crash is in the post. And it will be a catastrophe. Yet the people who are presently causing it will doubtless walk away scot free, counting their millions AGAIN

Posted 1 year ago #
poppa - Member

I think one of the main problems is the short-term nature of the financial industry.

The financial (banking) industry has a fairly rapid turnover of staff - you either make your money and get out, or else decide it's not for you and get out, or else move to a different company.

Furthermore, bonuses are often calculated on a short term system - e.g how much did your investments earn this year, or in some cases (frighteningly) the bonus may dependent only on how much you invested and not the results.

So if, for example, someone makes a risky investment with a pension fund and it all goes tits up two years later, there is a pretty good chance the person responsible has either retired or moved and doesn't give a flying ****.

Posted 1 year ago #
molgrips - Member

But it's all fine, let's just let them carry on doing whatever they want, because there's nothing else left.

Ok, so short selling is bad. So that means the whole financial industry is evil and wrecks the economy? Struggling to understand here.

Posted 1 year ago #
grum - Member

binners post explains it pretty well - are you being deliberately obtuse?

Posted 1 year ago #
molgrips - Member

It doesn't explain it at all!

He is saying that there are reckless financial practices which will cause problems in the future. I agree with that, no questions there.

However that doesn't explain why you seem to be claiming the WHOLE financial industry is bad, and why it's worse than the manufacturing industry.

After all manufacturing has put us in a whole lot of extremely difficult crap that's going to take a lot more than a year or two to get out of....

Posted 1 year ago #
crikey - Member

After all manufacturing has put us in a whole lot of extremely difficult crap that's going to take a lot more than a year or two to get out of....

Would you care to expand on what appears to be, at first and subsequent readings, something that doesn't make sense?

Posted 1 year ago #
grum - Member

However that doesn't explain why you seem to be claiming the WHOLE financial industry is bad, and why it's worse than the manufacturing industry.

There's a number of reasons already given above why it would be better to have a broader base to our economy, which includes more manufacturing. Look at the example of Germany right now.

Over-reliance on one sector is a bad thing in itself, but especially when that sector routinely engages in spectacularly reckless business practices with enormous sums of money.

The financial services industry isn't necessarily bad - but what apparently attracts a lot of this business to our country is a relative lack of regulation. And we've just seen where that's got us.....

Posted 1 year ago #
billysugger - Member

yawn

Posted 1 year ago #
molgrips - Member

And we've just seen where that's got us.....

Is that specifically a British problem or a global one?

Would you care to expand on what appears to be, at first and subsequent readings, something that doesn't make sense?

Manufacturing consumes resources and emits pollutants. Banking does not Ok so I'm being silly there but it is true that manufacturing makes stuff to feed our compulsion to by crap made from stuff dug out of the ground which is very bad news for the environment. Especially as half of that crap uses up energy when it's running as well as when it's being made.

Posted 1 year ago #
brooess - Member

You lot! LOL. A simple question about life in London and you've turned it into a classic STW argument about left and right wing politics!!
Sadly, given the superiority of the riding up North, it does look like I'll end up back in London Village for work.

Anyways, a few factoids to throw into the mix, just for the fun of it:

1. The Mini - one of Britain's 'biggest manufacturing success stories' - lost £30 on everyone made. They were nationalised at the time so that loss was paid for by taxpayers. Is that what we want? BMC Wikipedia link

2. The City does not make up 100% of the financial services industry and the contribution financial services makes to the UK economy. For example, LloydsTSB had in 2007 around 70,000 employees. About 40,000 IIRC were employed in branch, earning much closer to the UK median salary...

As you were....

Posted 1 year ago #
poppa - Member

lol.

Posted 1 year ago #
Elfinsafety - Member

Wunundred!

It is now raining in London. Proof that we don't always have it better than the rest of the country.

Posted 1 year ago #
nedrapier - Member

Is that specifically a British problem or a global one?

Not a specifically british one, but certainly not a global one either. What we call the "global credit crunch" is often called the "north Atlantic credit crunch" in Asia.

Posted 1 year ago #
trailmonkey - Member

It is now raining in London

at least it will damp down the dust on the trails.

oh............................

Posted 1 year ago #
nedrapier - Member

It'll damp down the dust on the commute home. Less likely to get grit in my eyes. Win.

Posted 1 year ago #
Elfinsafety - Member

Good point. I had been coughing a bit after rides in Epping Forest actually. And I'm hoping the rock-hard baked rutted bits the flippin horseriders create will be softened, thus making flattening them out a bit easier.

Posted 1 year ago #
aracer - Member

A simple question about life in London and you've turned it into a classic STW argument about left and right wing politics

I did try my best right up there to turn it into a classic STW argument about how rubbish London is, but sadly nobody really bit.

Posted 1 year ago #