• This topic has 38 replies, 25 voices, and was last updated 6 years ago by MSP.
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  • Living in a cycling culture.
  • MrWoppit
    Free Member

    After a couple of weeks sorting myself out here in Orgiva, I finally got out for a bit of a ride.

    On the road bike just for starters.

    Speaking as someone who’s main roadying used to be commuting into London every day, rural Spain came as something of a surprise.

    Despite being foretold about how cyclists are treated here, I wasn’t completely prepared for the peculiar lack of interest in killing me, displayed by motorised road users.

    It is required by law for motorists to leave a metre and a half between their nearside and any cyclist they are overtaking, or so I’ve been told. Many of the drivers who passed me were actually, having SLOWED DOWN, moving completely over into the oncoming lane to get past.

    On one occasion, the oncoming traffic even slowed down to allow my overtaker to complete the move safely. There was no leaning on the horn, gesturing or shouting. It just… happened…

    Also, despite the fact that I am obviously not one of their race-fit, carbon-biked superfit fraternity, I even got a lot of “ola” and “buenos dias” as those chaps pelted uphill in top gear whilst I churned it out in second.

    The first half dozen drivers must have wondered what that guy on the bike was waving about as I thanked them for leaving me undamaged before I managed to accept that I was actually being treated with respect.

    Tch! Europe, eh?

    weeksy
    Full Member

    Woppit,

    We’re there in a few weeks if you fancy a beer. 3-10 June with Biking Andalucia 🙂

    Stoner
    Free Member

    over 10 yrs ago now when Mrs S and I were touring across Spain and France, we too noted just how courteous the Spanish drivers of the northern states of Spain were. Oddly less so in France though which was disappointing. It may not be quite so pleasant in southern Spain around Catalonia though?

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    palmer77
    Free Member

    Welcome, its great here 🙂

    MrWoppit
    Free Member

    I’d be happy to meet up for drink weeksy

    It may not be quite so pleasant in southern Spain around Catalonia though?

    I’m in the Alpujarras (Southern Spain)…

    RoterStern
    Free Member

    It’s similar here in Germany but still not perfect. I think the main difference is that nearly all divers here also ride a bicycle and so know exactly what it’s like to be vulnerable on the roads.

    Sandwich
    Full Member

    Oddly less so in France though which was disappointing.

    You sure they weren’t Brits in their ‘local’ or hired car? (The expats in France I know of keep a car at the holiday home for local use).

    scotroutes
    Full Member

    Our European and American cycle hire customers, and those cyclists we transport, regularly tell us how courteous the drivers are in the Highlands and Islands of Scotland.

    MrWoppit
    Free Member

    Yes. Watch yourselves out there among them English… 😉

    Alex
    Full Member

    Orgiva is such a great place. So much good riding there. And yep everyone is extremely careful and courteous around cyclists.

    MSP
    Full Member

    It’s similar here in Germany but still not perfect. I think the main difference is that nearly all divers here also ride a bicycle and so know exactly what it’s like to be vulnerable on the roads.

    I think it is getting worse in Germany, still a lot better than the UK but not as good as Spain.

    I had it a few weeks ago where I took a turning onto a country rd (fairly decent straight road plenty of space not a narrow winding lane)and a cycle lane started on the other side of the road about 50 metres after the junction separated from the road by a small grass bank. I didn’t know the road or know that the cycle lane would be there, but was going to move across to it once there was a suitable entry point. Unfortunately 1 car driver decided I had held her up for all of 5 seconds and decided to lean on her horn as she passed closely, once 1 had others followed and repeated her behaviour.

    devash
    Free Member

    I have a Spanish partner, soon to be Spanish wife. We are planning on moving over there in the next couple of years (my idea, not hers). Its just a nicer place to be in every respect for cyclists.

    RoterStern
    Free Member

    @MSP that is why I said not quite perfect. I usually have some kind of altercation with a motorist once a month rather than once a day in the UK. 🙂 Funnily enough it is invariably about not using a cycle path in pretty much the same Scenario you described or because the cycle path is not suitable for a road bike (ie no asphalt).

    scud
    Free Member

    scotroutes – Member
    Our European and American cycle hire customers, and those cyclists we transport, regularly tell us how courteous the drivers are in the Highlands and Islands of Scotland.

    We fond this up in Skye and the Outer Hebrides when we touring on the fat bikes, i can’t think of a single instance when the car didn’t give way to us on the single lane “passing place” roads, plus the road services were ace (EU money i think?) plus everyone on the CalMac ferries was friendly, through me right out, i’m used to being a supposed annoyance to society as a whole on my bike!

    globalti
    Free Member

    I went to Orgiva in the early 90s to stay with some pals who were squatting in an old farm up the valley. When I got there I discovered that they had naffed off back home without telling me (no mobile phones in those days) so I stayed in that hotel at the end of the bridge for a week, sleeping a lot, eating, cycling and wondering who stole my gloves, which I left by the back door in an unguarded moment. When I cycled back to Malaga airport I couldn’t believe how fit I had become after a week of entirely hilly cycling.

    My strongest memory of cycling in Spain is the astonishing variety of rubbish thrown out of cars and dumped by the roadside, mostly nappies and washing machines, it seemed.

    whitestone
    Free Member

    A couple of years ago we went cycle touring in Orkney and Shetland. Almost without exception the drivers were courteous towards us, waiting until it was safe (for everyone) for them to pass. Finland, well Rovaniemi in Lapland, was also better than the UK (read as England).

    MrWoppit
    Free Member

    in that hotel at the end of the bridge for a week,

    Mirasol. D’you want me to see if your gloves are still there? 😉 😆

    mugsys_m8
    Full Member

    I raised eyebrows the other month when 200, the french magazine wrote an article on a trip they did up the A9 to Thurso. They commented on how courteous the drivers were, and saying they wished it was the same back in France.

    I used to think France was great, way better than in UK (most experience was Sheffield and the Peak). Having been here now for nearly 9 years, I’m starting to find it not so great and even had a road rage incident with an unhinged driver a few months ago. I think ‘in the whole’ France is more courteous than the UK and certainly it’s rare to have what would be an almost everyday altercation in the UK when I used to commute Sheffield- Chesterfield. But it’s by no means great. In France the issue seems to be for me the backward country-folk (might be due too where I live), in the UK it was most of the many different types of the community.

    Anyway both of the above lead me to think there is a factor of happy to be where you are: If you’re touring in the highlands: of course you’re having a great time. If you’re commuting across some some city on your daily treadmill, everyone’s stressed. So on holiday, in a different country, your impression is slightly skewed.

    bob_summers
    Full Member

    It is required by law for motorists to leave a metre and a half between their nearside and any cyclist they are overtaking, or so I’ve been told.

    Correct, and motorists are allowed to cross a solid white line to pass a ‘special’ vehicle, ie cyclist, horses, tractors etc.

    On the other hand, a drunk driver ploughed into a group of cyclists yesterday in Valencia, killing two. There is some shocking driving here. It might be better than the UK but that’s not saying much. I used to train in France a couple of times a week and the drivers there (64) are so bad, and getting worse, I rarely cross the border now and lot of my riding mates say the same.

    OP take care on roundabouts. Most people don’t know how to use them and will happily right-hook you in order to leave at their exit.

    slowster
    Free Member

    The common denominator for the positive experiences described above seems to me to be more low traffic density, probably as a consequence of low population density, rather than any particular nationality or culture.

    whitestone
    Free Member

    @slowster – quite possible but the attitude of “I’ve got to do it five minutes ago” isn’t there either.

    ChunkyMTB
    Free Member

    slowster – Member
    The common denominator for the positive experiences described above seems to me to be more low traffic density, probably as a consequence of low population density, rather than any particular nationality or culture.

    POSTED 4 MINUTES AGO #

    This

    crazy-legs
    Full Member

    The common denominator for the positive experiences described above seems to me to be more low traffic density, probably as a consequence of low population density, rather than any particular nationality or culture.

    Partly that and partly that the whole way of life is just less rushed. No-one seems to care if they arrive at their destination at any particular time that day or even that day at all! And part of it is that the Spanish do actually know how to build good roads, they’re usually wide, smooth and offer good visibility for easy overtakes when required.

    I’ve done a fair bit of road riding in and around that Orgiva, Lanjaron, Cadiar, Ugijar valley. More or less my go-to destination for guaranteed early seaosn sunshine. 🙂

    mattyfez
    Full Member

    The general attitude to cyclists is much better in Spain, at least that’s what I’ve found.

    Of course there’s still the odd issue, but on balance it’s much better, generally drivers seem happy to hang back until a sensible overtake can performed.

    As opposed to the UK where they seem compelled to pass you regardless of how dangerous it might be.

    MrWoppit
    Free Member

    OP take care on roundabouts. Most people don’t know how to use them and will happily right-hook you in order to leave at their exit.

    Okydoky.

    slowster
    Free Member

    quite possible but the attitude of “I’ve got to do it five minutes ago” isn’t there either.

    Partly that and partly that the whole way of life is just less rushed. No-one seems to care if they arrive at their destination at any particular time that day or even that day at all!

    Is that true of Madrid as well? I am sceptical because I think globalisation and the nature of competition in modern economies means people in cities and densely populated areas are under similar pressures and stresses everywhere, and will tend to respond similarly.

    And part of it is that the Spanish do actually know how to build good roads, they’re usually wide, smooth and offer good visibility for easy overtakes when required.

    According to Wikipedia, the population density of Spain is 91 persons per square kilometre, compared with 255 in the UK. Spain is more than double the size of the UK (506,000 square kilometres vs. 243,000 square kilometres).

    In the UK the road network evolved from country tracks which were no wider than they needed to be and would have followed routes around farmland and estates and avoided natural obstacles. It’s not surprising that where there is more land and longer distances between villages and towns, that the roads could be wider and straighter with better visibility, especially in areas where the land is less fertile. I suspect the UK’s climate is also a lot more damaging to road surfaces than Spain’s.

    greentricky
    Free Member

    Isn’t it the case in Spain if you hit a cyclist you are presumed to be at fault?

    PimpmasterJazz
    Free Member

    Despite being foretold about how cyclists are treated here, I wasn’t completely prepared for the peculiar lack of interest in killing me, displayed by motorised road users.

    😆

    wilburt
    Free Member

    I dont think its actually a ‘cyclist’ thing, they are just not so psychotic in general as the UK and people have a mutual respect.

    In the UK you have no value to each other the only thing stopping you getting smeared across the road in the is the fear of repercussions and the chance of that is diminishing rapidly.

    palmer77
    Free Member

    My strongest memory of cycling in Spain is the astonishing variety of rubbish thrown out of cars and dumped by the roadside, mostly nappies and washing machines, it seemed.

    True dat…

    The common denominator for the positive experiences described above seems to me to be more low traffic density, probably as a consequence of low population density, rather than any particular nationality or culture.

    Perhaps, but the traffic here in Marbella is crazy, and driving a car is everyone for themself. Weirdly though, like a swarm of ants, so long as everyone keeps moving it works. As far as cyclists are concerned drivers almost without exception are great 🙂

    Sandwich
    Full Member

    Slowster, Madrid has a reasonably good attitude to bikes. Lots of 20kph streets and mandatory lanes. The contra-flow lane uphill was an experience.

    Malvern Rider
    Free Member

    I dont think its actually a ‘cyclist’ thing, they are just not so psychotic in general as the UK and people have a mutual respect.

    In the UK you have no value to each other the only thing stopping you getting smeared across the road in the is the fear of repercussions and the chance of that is diminishing rapidly.

    I agree. With the unfortunate addition that in the UK England we now have a (palpable and growing) anti-cyclist sentiment on the roads. This further feeds the psychos.

    n0b0dy0ftheg0at
    Free Member

    I’m convinced part of the issue is that the UK is now one of the most densely populated countries in Europe. I don’t know if it still the case, but in ~1990, France had the same population size of ~56 million as the UK, but France is a much larger landmass.

    Role on to 2017, the UK now has ~65.5 million.

    Where the population is densest, around London and the south coast, the tolerance of others on the road is getting worse in the urban areas.

    wilburt
    Free Member

    Agree thats part of the issue but my experience of cycling in Spain is in cities and rural areas and even in the city its suprising how generous drivers are.

    I think my views are also influenced by nights out in towns and cities across Europe when all generations seem to mingle without incident.

    I comparison despite growing up in some slighty rough areas of Leeds and Manchester and not being easily scared I wouldnt go to an evening gathering in a UK city too many knuckledraggers.

    palmer77
    Free Member

    Where the population is densest, around London and the south coast,

    Seems harsh but you can’t argue with statistics 😆

    MSP
    Full Member

    I’m convinced part of the issue is that the UK is now one of the most densely populated countries in Europe.

    The Netherlands and Belgium has a higher population density, Germany is lower but even more car obsessed. I think the political attitude towards cycling is the difference, and that drives the perception and attitude of the public. Population density and car culture are just excuses to do nothing.

    Netherlands Netherlands 393 per km
    Belgium Belgium 337 per km
    United Kingdom United Kingdom 267 per km
    Germany Germany 233 per km

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_and_population_of_European_countries

    And lets not forget the general attitude in America towards cyclists seems even worse, and they are massively less densely populated than Europe.

    mrlebowski
    Free Member

    I remember doing a training camp with Torq back in the day – even on MTBS they were uber nice & polite.

    Muchos gracias Spanish driver peeps!

    whitestone
    Free Member

    @MSP – the population density of the UK (and most countries) is highly varied, roughly a quarter of the population live in London and the South East.

    MSP
    Full Member

    The Netherlands and Belgium are still more densely populated than the south east outside of London. London has fairly normal city density, it is just a bigger city.

    This is the problem, the ignorance of the UK population in believing they have special problems that stop action from being taken.

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