He’s got the Military Cross for doing various things including saving his mates by facing down an ambush with a rocket launcher. He talked about it like he was going out to buy a newspaper.

Most of us live such sheltered and safe lives.

he volunteered to do something he wanted to do.

what’s your point ?

he is a one brave fella who deserves some respect for putting his own life on the line to save others…no one is so stupid they need that pointing out
I am no fan of the military that does not mean some of them are not incredibly brave and incredibly humble…qualities that seem reasonable to admire
I also heard it HTS

My point is that I am amazed how matter of fact the guy sounded doing something that most could not comprehend.

double post

treble post 🙄

he is a one brave fella who deserves some respect for putting his own life on the line to save others…no one is so stupid they need that pointing out
I am no fan of the military that does not mean some of them are not incredibly brave and incredibly humble…qualities that seem reasonable to admire
I also heard it HTS

any number of firemen do that everyday, how many of them get to present the fa cup ?

this is just jingoism, but enjoy it if that’s your bag.

Easy Harry. You’ve made your point. Three times.

I’m not for a moment saying that firemen, or any of the emergency services by extension aren’t brave, but the difference is that a fire (for example) whilst being a dangerous thing, is not actively targeting YOU and deciding in a very simple and clinical way that they are going to kill YOU…which is what this guy faced down.

jingoism the extreme belief that your own country is always best, which is often shown in enthusiastic support for a war against another country

I think my post is pretty clear that jingoism is not my bag and this is not jingoism anyway.
perhaps if we had a parade past him whooping and cheering and chanting etc it would be jingoism but this seems some way away from what I can see.
Why not a firePERSON no idea I am not privvy to the decision making process but all seem more worthy than a royal or a suit at the FA IMHO.
Perhpas hearing the interview would change your mind?

is it bollocks jingoism.

I am no fan of the military that does not mean some of them are not incredibly brave and incredibly humble…qualities that seem reasonable to admire

I suspect the Taliban tell their fellow countrymen stories about engaging heavily armed foreign troops which are occupying their country, that also involve incredible acts of bravery. I’m not sure I respect them any more for it though.

It’s the cause which wins my admiration and respect, not necessarily the acts.

Brave (good) Soldier = Shows many psychopathic and sociopathic tendancies.

not having a go at him, it’s just an observation and something of a confession.
I guess circumstance determines whether these are positive or negative attributes.

could one argue that PTSD is the effect of a ‘good soldier’ recovering from battle stress who is not sociopathic enough?

I see your view ernie but I think the two may be seen in isolation
Some folk [ from any side] are not capable of incredibly brave acts during war
Yes it would be better if we never had to find this out.
In the same respect you may agre with the reason for a war but not necessairly the methods employed to win the war etc
I may have swayed from my traditional view due to the interview to be fair

of course its jingoism. all this brave heroes stuff just legitimises the awful wars that this country insists on fighting.

if anyone really cared about ‘our’ troops, they’d be on the streets every weekend campaigning to get them home.

Bloody hell! I seem to have kicked over a bucket of piss with this one.

My comment was that I.

1) Couldn’t do what he did.
2) Wouldn’t be so calm about it if I had.

I may have swayed from my traditional view due to the interview to be fair

Ah, I suspect you might be right there ………”listening” to what other human beings have to say can have a profound affect on our perceptions. Humans don’t listen to other humans enough, if they did, then there might be a whole lot less wars going on.

I have no doubt that if you had heard Afghans being interviewed on your radio this morning, you might have been “swayed” in another way. Which probably helps to explain why you didn’t hear any Afghans being interviewed on your radio this morning.

ok now go persuade the OED to redefine the dictionary definition.
Saying well done to a soldier for being brave and supporting this country in expansionist wars and always thinking it is right are quite clealy different.

EDIT: Indeed ernie if we watched al jazera and saw the innocent mourning the collateral damage we may also change our view hence why we dont see that and why Israel dont let the pres sinto Palesine when they wage war [ or whaterver PR spin they give it]

Some of these soldiers are a bit ‘menatlly removed’ from the situation they are/were in. I work with a guy who spent 6 months in a cave in Afghanistan ‘eliminating’ potential Taliban trainees.

They were overlooking a valley and every so often there’d be a small convoy travelling through the base of the valley. His job was to determine if they were farmers or recruits for a nearby training camp.
Once he’d decided they were the enemy, he’d call in an air strike, and in his words ‘vapourise them’.

He talks about it like he was playing with toy soldiers! He’s not the slightest bit bothered that he wasn’t ever really sure if he’d just ordered the death of some local farmers or the enemy!

I suppose he is some sort of hero, but a bit of me can’t help think that he’s just a bit crazy!

Harry_the_Spider – Member

Bloody hell! I seem to have kicked over a bucket of piss with this one.

You seem surprised. Going to war and its consequences is always going to be a controversial issue. You are extremely unlikely to get a general consensus concerning the rights and wrongs of travelling thousands of miles with weapons and troops with the intention of killing people.

EDIT : I’m not a pacifist btw.

if you are going to quote me at least included it all.

He talked about it like he was going out to buy a newspaper.

Most of us live such sheltered and safe lives.

My point is that I am amazed how matter of fact the guy sounded doing something that most could not comprehend.

My comment was that I.

1) Couldn’t do what he did.
2) Wouldn’t be so calm about it if I had.

Whatever… you lot argue away. I’ve got stuff to do.

if you are going to quote me at least included it all.

Why ?

Looking at the rest of your post, should anyone feel the need to, is incredibly easy.

And as far as this is concerned : “Bloody hell! I seem to have kicked over a bucket of piss with this one.” you seem immeasurably more rattled than anyone else.

groan

I’m a great big lefty, wishy-washy liberal, but even I can see just how brave the men and women in the forces are. Whether you agree or disagree with where they are or the decision made to send them there, it’s still possible to respect and support the people on the ground.

I think this works on two levels.

I am always impressed and humbled by the dedication and bravery shown by soldiers to their colleagues.

I am ashamed and horrified by our country’s decision to illegally invade other nation states to further own interests, and killing countless civilians in the process.

I went to a Rugby League final at Old Trafford, and they had some paras (I think) abseil down from the roof of the stadium, then the announcer asked for (and got) a big cheer for our brave boys fighting in Afghanistan, and promoted recruitment to the military.

Sorry for being such a cliched lefty but it did make me feel uncomfortable – seems like pretty blatant propaganda (is that the right term?) to get support for our highly questionable military actions.

edit: Yossarian – I agree but it’s hard to separate the two, especially when there are what I feel are concerted efforts to use public sympathy for the military to gain support for foreign policy.

Re the OP – the funny thing with people is that they tend to get used to whatever situation they are in, however extreme it might seem – after a while it becomes normal.

Re the OP – the funny thing with people is that they tend to get used to whatever situation they are in, however extreme it might seem – after a while it becomes normal.

Two people I worked with have seen and done things I couldn’t imagine. They both remained (as) sane (as the rest of us). One was in the RAF regiment, the other a mounted police officer.

Brave (good) Soldier = Shows many psychopathic and sociopathic tendancies.

not having a go at him, it’s just an observation and something of a confession.
I guess circumstance determines whether these are positive or negative attributes.

could one argue that PTSD is the effect of a ‘good soldier’ recovering from battle stress who is not sociopathic enough?

Somewhat of a sweeping egneralisation there. How many soldiers do you know?

Some of these soldiers are a bit ‘menatlly removed’ from the situation they are/were in. I work with a guy who spent 6 months in a cave in Afghanistan ‘eliminating’ potential Taliban trainees.

They were overlooking a valley and every so often there’d be a small convoy travelling through the base of the valley. His job was to determine if they were farmers or recruits for a nearby training camp.
Once he’d decided they were the enemy, he’d call in an air strike, and in his words ‘vapourise them’.

Is his name “Legs” or “Dinger” and is he “from Hereford”…?

Well I’ve met a few of his mates and they all have the same attitude towards it, so I guess I’ve met more than one, so therefore ‘some’.

Edit, just realised you may not have been directing that question at me!

His name is Gary, but he does always have a black block over his eyes so you can never really tell what he looks like!

i couldnt do it, would nt want to do it, but i’m glad that somebody does.

Sorry for being such a cliched lefty but it did make me feel uncomfortable – seems like pretty blatant propaganda (is that the right term?) to get support for our highly questionable military actions.

I feel the same tbh. I see the military as a necessary evil, doing an extremely unpleasant but at times vital job, and for sure, the bravery of individuals is to be commended, but the ‘propaganda’ that seems to abound at the moment makes me feel uncomfortable. Are we obliged to support every single service person in the armed forces? Does it make us any less ‘British’ if we dare to question their actions?

As for ‘I couldn’t do it’; well, I’d imagine that if you were in a situation where if you ‘didn’t’, you’d die, then perhaps you’d find that you could, actually. Humans are remarkably tough creatures when faced with adversity.

Then of course there’s the argument that if people din’t sign up in the first place, then they woon’t be in situations where they’d have to be ‘brave’, but that’s another argument I spose.

I am ashamed and horrified by our country’s decision to illegally invade other nation states to further own interests, and killing countless civilians in the process.

I think it’s vitally important to always consider this, and to not lose sight of the reality and horror of war, by glossing over it with tales of bravery and glorious tales of ‘victory’.

Davetrave> my family have a strong army tradition, 4 of my cousins were infantry.
I am ex-RN engineer (so technically not a soldier, but loosely related), but we had to have marines on board for security duties & ship to ship assaults etc.
one of my cousins served out out Hereford for most of his career plus was a civvy trainer there for 15yrs.
I have 2 close friends still in REME (I don’t really count them as soldiers) plus one ex-greenjacket. plus numerous aquaintances & clients.

But we both know I was talking VERY generally. Like all large groups there is wide differences between individuals. Personally I never had a problem with the idea of actually killing someone in service, but it’s widely believed that the reason >1000 rounds were fired in WW2 for each death is because many conscripts didn’t actually “try to kill” enemy because they couldn’t morally sanction the aim/fire/kill process. Rather they would fire in the general direction of the enemy as opposed to directly at them.

& while I’m not a psychologist or personally currently involved in the Services, it doesn’t stop me having an opinion (however invalid) & sharing it on the internet. Just like everyone else on the planet
🙄

try this for size tho: a RN Chief or PO could (and was during the Falklands Conflict) be required to flood a compartment with high pressure steam in order to stop a fire. This may or may not be whilst his own team are still in the compartment. Whomever is in the compartment would naturally be killed, but this is to protect the rest of the ship. So ask yourself is this RN engineer any “less brave” than a soldier? the bravery is just different – because he knows all the time he might die or have to kill his friends.

Must be a very proud day for Cpl Mark Ward. Here’s hoping he presents the cup to a certain Mr Shawcross though according to the telly he’s a Man City fan!

It’s an interesting point. Yes it’s brave, but soldiers’ situations are completely different to ours.

A lot of heroes from WWII have been on telly telling heroic stories but they often seem to dismiss it, saying that it was just what you did, because it needed doing.

Humans are remarkably tough creatures when faced with adversity

Quite right. A lot of the WWII blokes on the documentaries were just ordinary folk conscripted, so they hadn’t even chosen any of it. But they still came through. Testament to the human spirit as much as anything else.

that was a well balanced and excellent response elfin …you feeling ok 😉

Crotchrocket, of course you are entitled to your opinion, that wasn’t my point. It was with the very sweeping generalisation that a brave/good soldier is a sociopath/pyschopath. Nor was I questioning the different types of bravery – the example you quote would require great moral courage, the sacrifice of the few to save the many. One of my very good friends holds an MC for bravery in combat, he didn’t have to kill anybody, he got it for co-ordintaing the evacuation of his patrol, many of whom were seriously wounded, which had been cut off and surrounded, by exposing himself to further danger in order to direct the medevac helicopters to their position – he was subsequently wounded himself by an RPG. He is neither a sociopath nor a psychopath. I, on the other hand, have never been awarded a decoration for bravery, does that therefore make me a bad soldier?

I’m sure you’ll know, as an ex-Serviceman yourself, that those who do win awards are not always actively seeking the situation whereby they can display their talents but often find themselves in the wrong place at the wrong time and just do what needs to be done to save themselves and their mates.

There will always be a small minority who do join specifically to get in to a scrap but, in my experience (17 years and counting in the Infantry), the vast majority of recruits come from socially and economically deprived backgrounds and are seeking a job, any job, security and money (my regiment recruits from the mill towns of North West England – Blackburn, Burnley, Preston…). Me, I joined for 2 reasons – I wanted a career and through some altruistic desire to do some good in the world (this was in the days of our involvement in Bosnia). True, I voluntarily joined up, but back then who could have predicted our involvement in Afghanistan and what a ball of chalk Iraq was going to turn in to…

I have a couple of ex-Poole/Hereford types working for me training the ANA at the moment, they’re a completely different kettle of fish however… 😉

And if anybody thinks our propaganda is bad, you should see some of the rubbish the Americans come out with – we’re on a US base and are bombarded with it daily through the TV… 😐

Brave (good) Soldier = Shows many psychopathic and sociopathic tendancies.

You say this and defend it as ‘having an opinion’ as if that clears you from something factually wrong. Your friends and family must be a lovely bunch if you have formed that view of soldiers.