'Linguicide' of minority languages?

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'Linguicide' of minority languages?

55 posts & 24 voices | Started 7 months ago by Sue_W | Latest reply from GEDA

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Sue_W - Member

Watched Stephen Fry's 'Planet Word' last night - fascinating.

He talking about 'linguicide' - the destruction of minority languages by 'dominant' languages, due to globalisation. Apparently there are currently about 7000 languages, but by the end of the century there will only be about 1000 left.

Is this a problem? Do we need 'linguistic diversity'?

As language is closely connected with the culture of the people who speak it, are we also losing cultural richness when a language falls out of use? (There was a fascinating interview with a Russian / English speaking linguist who talked about how different languages allow different concepts and interpretations of the same objects to be articulated.)

Has it been a process of deliberate attempts to destroy minority languages? Certainly in the not so recent past, this has been the case with languages such as Welsh and Irish when children were banned from speaking these languages in schools, and were required to speak only English.

But on the other hand, language is constantly evolving and changing (the English we speak today has little resemblance to Medieval English). So is the loss of minority languages a result of 'natural' language evolution, a facet of our culture's engagement with globalisation. In which case, should we just let it happen? Or should the state intervene (through funding, support and legislation) to keep languages alive (as is the case here in Wales)?

What do you think? Should we make deliberate attempts to preserve minority languages? Ot 'leave them to it', and see if they survive against the forces of language globalisation? Or should we just have one 'global language' to aid communication and breakdown cultural barriers?

Posted 7 months ago #
GEDA - Member

English should bring back plural "you" - "ye". Why did we get rid of it? Much easier to describe who you are talking to/about.

Posted 7 months ago #
Stoner - Member

Welsh should be the first up against the wall

Posted 7 months ago #
sweepy - Member

I can't understand parents up here wanting their kids to learn Gaelic. Why not something useful like Chinese.

Posted 7 months ago #
GEDA - Member

My sisters sending her children to a Gaelic school. They live in Ireland. I thought children can learn up to 5 languages at the same time if they are young enough so can't see any problems with that.

Posted 7 months ago #
epicyclo - Member

sweepy - Member
I can't understand parents up here wanting their kids to learn Gaelic. Why not something useful like Chinese.

So they can speak to their grandparents?

Not to mention their other relatives, or understanding their culture.

Posted 7 months ago #
sweepy - Member

There aren't many that cant speak English tho. Ive never met one. And surely in that case their relatives could teach them.

I take your point about culture, but I'd personally prefer my kids to learn something more useful. And why dont we have Dorric schools?

Posted 7 months ago #
stevomcd - Member

English should bring back plural "you" - "ye". Why did we get rid of it? Much easier to describe who you are talking to/about.

We never got rid of it in Scotland. "What are youze up to?"

I totally agree by the way - I speak French plus some Spanish & Italian and the second-person-plural is very useful.

Posted 7 months ago #
rkk01 - Member

I think teach kids native languages whilst they are young enough..

Our kids went to Welsh medium school at 3 and are effectively bi-lingual. They are now much more receptive to other new languages than either me or mrs rkk01 were.

Welsh, Gaelic, Manx, Cornish etc should be taught by default at primary level. Why? Well, if for no other reason, those languages are embedded in the place names that they come from. To loose that would, IMO, result in cultural impoverishment.

Posted 7 months ago #
epicyclo - Member

sweepy - Member
There aren't many that cant speak English tho. Ive never met one. And surely in that case their relatives could teach them.

Why should they have to speak English? They mostly can anyway, and they use that out of politeness when in company of a monoglot English speaker.

I take your point about culture, but I'd personally prefer my kids to learn something more useful. And why dont we have Dorric schools?

My kids are more likely to run into Gaelic speakers than Chinese or Urdu etc. They have already learned one foreign language - English.

I don't know why there are no Doric schools - maybe the Doric speakers should organise something - it's certainly worth preserving.

It all depends where you live I suppose, plus there is the effect of the centuries of negative brainwashing towards non-English languages.

Posted 7 months ago #
z1ppy - Member

What? "Ye" is actualy just "the", as in the "ye olde pub" atually means "the old pub"

The "y" here is a representation of the obsolete letter thorn,
which looked like "b" and "p" superimposed, and was pronounced
[T] or [D] (the same as modern "th"). The pronunciation of "ye" in
"Ye Olde Curiositie Shoppe" as /ji/, which you sometimes hear, is a
spelling pronunciation.

Posted 7 months ago #
Elfinsafety - Member

Or should we just have one 'global language' to aid communication and breakdown cultural barriers?

This. There are many dialects in the English language, and the odd archaic word and that, but we can all understand each other.

I'm all for the promotion of Welsh, for example (chiefly as trying to pronounce things makes me laugh which is all that matters really), but it can serve as a divisive thing, that 'Welsh folk talking in Welsh to exclude the English' type nonsense. Mind, I see it happen round here; some of the Asian shopkeepers can be quite rude to customers who are oblivious as to what they're actually saying, and the use of their own language is used defensively in the same way.

English has evolved into an extremely practical and well-developed language, as it draws it's roots from so many different languages and dialects, and has involved so many different cultures. A truly international language, which is only really challenged by Spanish, as Chinese isn't spoken in all that many countries globally (and even then there's different versions!).

Sadly, as nice as it is to see old traditions kept alive and stuff, 'preserving' older minority languages is little more than a vanity project. I think it's up to the Welsh to preserve their 'own' language, but I don't think it should be a 'British' issue really.

What do the Patagonians think?

Posted 7 months ago #
clubber - Member

Elfin + 1 - Forced or active linguicide is a bad thing but actively trying to keep something alive when there's no/insufficient inherent interest in it isn't something worthwhile IMO.

In the same way that I don't really take any issue with the AmericaniZation of English.

Posted 7 months ago #
stevomcd - Member

What? "Ye" is actualy just "the", as in the "ye olde pub" atually means "the old pub"

The "y" here is a representation of the obsolete letter thorn,
which looked like "b" and "p" superimposed, and was pronounced
[T] or [D] (the same as modern "th"). The pronunciation of "ye" in
"Ye Olde Curiositie Shoppe" as /ji/, which you sometimes hear, is a
spelling pronunciation.

Hear ye, hear ye.

Oh Come all ye Faithful.

Etc.

Posted 7 months ago #
z1ppy - Member

And The as in thee doesn't work in that situation?

Emphatic the [thee]
When we wish to place emphasis on a particular word, we can use "emphatic the" [thee], whether or not the word begins with a consonant or vowel sound. For example:

Hear the, hear the
oh come all the faithful..

Though admittely it maybe that ye in written form is only incorrect and ye is as you say... I dunno.

Posted 7 months ago #
sweepy - Member

Now I asasumed that there were two 'ye's'
Ye- the, and Ye- You.

'Hear the hear the' doesn't sound right to me

Posted 7 months ago #
bob_summers - Member

Do ye ken John Peel?

Yous is still used in Cumbria. Then there's y'all in Texas.

'preserving' older minority languages is little more than a vanity project

Fine, unless you happen to speak one. Franco wasn't keen on people speaking Basque so he banned its teaching in schools. Seems to be doing OK these days though.

Posted 7 months ago #
bob_summers - Member

wiki to ye rescue

In the early days of the printing press, the letter y was used in place of the thorn (þ), so many modern instances of "ye" (such as in "Ye Olde Shoppe") are in fact examples of "the" (definite article) and not of "you". This use of letters in printing may have indirectly helped to contribute to the displacement of thou by you, and the use of you in the nominative case.

Posted 7 months ago #
clubber - Member

Fine, unless you happen to speak one. Franco wasn't keen on people speaking Basque so he banned its teaching in schools.

That's active linguicide though. What Fred and I are talking about is ttying to keep something alive artificially. If it can survive alone it will, if not it won't. Things change.

Posted 7 months ago #
stevomcd - Member

oh come all the faithful..

Not buying that!

Oh come all the faithful [hmmm, maybe....]
Joyful and triumphant
Oh come the, oh come the to Bethlehem. [Nope, sorry!]

Posted 7 months ago #
Mr Agreeable - Member

It takes a big push to revive a declining language, hence why Welsh is completely in-your-face, with bilingual road signs, etc. Taking the softly-softly, "learn it if you like but it's not that important" approach doesn't work.

There may not be many active attempts to suppress minority languages, that doesn't mean that this was always so. In the case of Gaelic the suppression took place in the past. Even in the 20th century pupils were apparently being beaten for speaking it in school. So there's an argument that some form of redress is needed.

As to whether it's worth preserving a language, surely it's as important a part of culture as anything else? And the arguments for preserving and perpetuating culture are well rehearsed. I'm never going to read most of the books in the British Library, that doesn't mean I want them ending up in a skip somewhere.

Posted 7 months ago #
alpin - Member

i think it's good to keep languages alive.

i live in bavaria where they speak a rather gruff version of german. i can't speak a bit of it and am now able to understand the south tyroleans and even the swiss germans.

the north germans turn their nose up at it, but it is a language that is used a lot here (not so much in munich, but more so 15km out of town and the surrounding regions).

i have a friend who speaks Ladin.... a retero-romanisch language. an early decendant of latin and it is only spoken in three valleys by ~60,000 people in the Dolomites.

Posted 7 months ago #
Elfinsafety - Member

That's active linguicide though. What Fred and I are talking about is ttying to keep something alive artificially. If it can survive alone it will, if not it won't. Things change.

Yep. I don't believe in active linguicide. With an old dog, you put it down. With a language, you just let it die naturally, it won't feel any pain, it's a language, not an animal.

It's a very interesting and difficult one though; it's nice that things are written in Welsh, as it gives the country it's own distinct identity, which is important to it's people. Long may it continue.

Safle bws!

Posted 7 months ago #
flamejob - Member

I'm not a fan of multiple languages. It's a pain in the ass.

Mrs Flamejob speaks Spanish, English, Valencia, and is learning German.
In Valencia they teach Valenciano (it's a bit like Welsh, cause some oldies only speak it, but generally everyone speaks Castellano (spanish))... and if you want to get a job in the local government you need to speak Valencia. Pointless bureaucracy if you ask me.

Now we live in Switzerland we need to learn Swiss German; which is another dialect, but only useful in Switzerland.

English is a very dense language. I say we switch to that; or maybe Chinese.

Posted 7 months ago #
Sue_W - Member

Interesting debate peeps

The issue of 'active preservation' has arisen as a result of previous attempts at 'active discrimination' - ie what Mr Fry refers to as 'linguicide'. This has happened to Irish, Basque, Welsh, whereby these languages were banned and children were punished for speaking them. Thus, it can be argued that these languages have not been able to 'evolve naturally' as they have been subject to linguistic oppression. It is therefore difficult to know to what extent they would 'natuarally' be spoken if they had not been banned. In which case, is active support for these languages acceptable in order to 'redress' the balance?

The support for the welsh language is complicated, particularly in relation to employment. the challenge with keeping a minority language alive, is that the public sector in particular is obliged to offer it's services bi-lingually, along with having bi-lingual school teachers etc. Due to the small number of fluent speakers, this significantly limits the 'pool' of people who can apply for those jobs. Generally, the more you limit the number of applicants (for whatever reason), the greater likelihood of having a more restricted range of ability / experience. So in preserving the Welsh language(and Irish or Basque etc), will there be a resultant reduction in the skills level of employees within a country (as they are not able to select from a very wide range of applicants)?

Posted 7 months ago #
headfirst - Member

No mention of cunning linguists yet?

Come on STW, standards are slipping!

Posted 7 months ago #
sweepy - Member

Road signs do an important job tho, and its not preserving language. They need to be easily understandable to someone travelling past, and hopefully concentrating on driving a car.
Thats not the place for confusing matters with language that only a fraction of the population understand.

Posted 7 months ago #
Elfinsafety - Member

Ear Flamejob; weren't you the one what was pondering a move to Spain, a couple of years ago on here?

Speaking of the lovely Franco; din't he also try to ban Catalan? Which seemed to have the opposite effect, as it appeared to galvanise the Catalans and make them even more proud of their language and culture? Certainly, in Barçelona, I noticed that many people considered themselves Catalonians, not so much Spanish.

Posted 7 months ago #
rkk01 - Member

Road signs do an important job tho, and its not preserving language. They need to be easily understandable to someone travelling past, and hopefully concentrating on driving a car.
Thats not the place for confusing matters with language that only a fraction of the population understand.

I don't regard road signs in Wales as being any less easy to assimilate than those in England, France, Italy etc....

Posted 7 months ago #
Elfinsafety - Member

Oh, and this thread would be useless without pictures.

Allow me:

(Clicky piccy for story)

Posted 7 months ago #
sweepy - Member

As language develops in a global society it will naturally drift towards the more commonly used. Hence welsh words and phrases like Car parc (guess what that means)
Its why English is becoming more Americanised.

Posted 7 months ago #
Elfinsafety - Member

Mind you, they're taking the Mick with this one:

I get Kevevs to do that sometimes when I'm a bit tipsy, as I find it hilarious. I don't think he does though, and I think he feels that I treat him like a performing monkey.

Posted 7 months ago #
Sue_W - Member

As for me, on this issue I'm firmly on the fence (so much so that I even have splinters in my bum!)

On the one hand, I love the diversity of languages and how they represent what different cultures articulate and find important. And I can understand the desire to see active steps taken to redress the previous restriction of a language.

On the other hand, I have concerns about the impact that this has on employment and the economy of countries with minority languages. And as I said, a 'single language' helps with global communication and learning, which in itself can help with knowledge transfer from developed to less-developed countries.

Most of all, for me languages are active, living, developing aspects of human society. They reflect social change, dominant worldviews, and minority cultures (I spent a while studying the languages that have been developed in science fiction - a fascinating insight into what language could become in the future). I guess overall I'm not a fan of constraining or manipulating any language, but rather would prefer to let them evolve naturally. So although some 'old' languages might go, maybe new variants will appear?

Posted 7 months ago #
sweepy - Member

Thats not fair, neither of those are English.
And how do the Welsh find the exit?

Posted 7 months ago #
atlaz - Member

I agree with Elfin that languages shouldn't be forcefully kept alive just because people don't want them to die. People should want to speak them (my cousin's kids told me at the last family wedding that as soon as they're out of school, they'll never speak Welsh again) and help them evolve. In Luxembourg they teach four languages at school (so I'm told) and Luxembourgish is an active spoken language because the locals want it to be.

Posted 7 months ago #