I fondled an 853 frame in LBS at the weekend, it weight 5lb, which I didn't consider particularly light, I was advised this was due to CEN standards.

Is this the end of the light steel frame? Are we doomed to CF and alloy from now on?

been happening for a few years now, ols sunn fuji sl frames were 3lb in the smalled sizes, early rocky mountains were 4lb, a blizzard is now well over 5lb

doomed indeed

the extra weight contains the zing factor of steel is real dude

Jamis Dragon 853.Plenty of zing and relatively light

In that case I might pounce on something I saw when I took my frame to my framebuilder for some surgery. He produced (from storage on top of his office) a small Columbus MTB frame, still wrapped in cling filmy stuff. I know my Tange Prestige frame weighs 4.75lbs but this Columbus one was noticably lighter. V brake only though, but thought about bulding up a light rigid affair.
I would reckon it's been up there at least 12 years, I'm gonna see how much he'll take for it!

It's the pixie dust density inflation index. It's all the ConDems' fault.

essel – why not get a disc tab welded on while you're there…

I believe the latest batch of CEN compliant Cotic Souls just scrape in under 4lb in a small size.

essel – why not get a disc tab welded on while you're there…

& here lies a tale.
He put one on mine a while ago & the forces exerted on the chainstay by the disc brake (a Hope Mini 160) cracked the chainstay at the joint with the dropout & actually bent the seatstay! He rectified that by fitting a fatter seat & chainstay to the disc side only & It's been fine for, 5 years on.
I think I'd leave the Columbus frame alone as far as that goes, I've got a HT with discs haven't I?

Ok, I really meant 'add a disc tab and supporting strut as per most current steel frames that have them'.

Just put a brace in, std practice.

He could put a brace in but think how much weight that would add!! 😉
Naa, I think I'd leave it as it is. Depends on how much he wants for it anyway, (I'll let you know tomorrow.)

We had this discussion a few months ago where I essentially said the same thing, Brant countered by saying that he had got around the fatigue problems to pass CEN by building in flexibility…..

He's made frames that are stronger and heavier but more flexible?

Disk brakes exert masses of force on the frame, adding a strut just transfers the force from one stay that wasn't designed to take it to another.

Back in the day when disk's were new people did just add tabs to existing frame designs, they either fell off altogether or ripped the stays out of the dropouts.

Maybe try something like a formula mount which uses the calliper as a brace between the stays (used on the old sunn frames mentioned above which were lovely).

I was talking to Matt at 18bikes about this very thing yesterday. It does seem a shame that steel bikes are getting more and more rigid. Mind you the trend is for longer forks, slacker head angles, etc, etc too so the added weight can't all be down to CEN.

TINAS that's not my experience. Do you work in the trade or are you a framebuilder?

That's not really true spoon at least only partly – what the strut/brace does is make both stays take load – imagine the whole thing was made of spaghetti (cooked!) – if you loaded up the disc caliper, it'd bend both the chain and seat stays if there was a strut between them.

Read my post above. Both stays were bent. Since he stiffened the disc side up with beefier tubes It's been fine, & I've got an M4 on with a 170mm rotor.

Wideopen mag had some frame designers' thoughts on CEN and steel frames:

http://cotic.co.uk/press/WIDEOPEN_CEN

Just get a Ti frame – Doh! 😉

I believe the latest batch of CEN compliant Cotic Souls just scrape in under 4lb in a small size

i'll let you know tonight 😉 (assuming the postie has been)

Have they got some new stock then Vortex?

As an aside I presume custom frames don't have to pass the CEN tests. So if you really do want a light steel frame maybe that's one way around it. I know that as a 65kg wheels on the ground xc rider I could use a much lighter frame quite safely.

Have they got some new stock then Vortex?

No, but they did have a couple of black/wrap ones left in Small.

which is ideal for me 😆

Been emailing Brian Rourke about their new reynolds 953 stainless steel road frame, weight wise it comes in at 3.5lbs which is pretty reasonable. I imagine the mtb frame would be similar.

Seen one steel frame where the seatstay cracked above the disk mount and the chainstay at the dropout. Some kind of 90's saracen IIRC.

Asked about having some IS mounts put on my Sunn frame and the builder said he could do it, but would only warenty his own work, if the frame went (likely in his oppinion) then it was out of his hands. He mainly offered them for cross bikes and advised limiting them to 140mm

Ah – not really enough for a general/global statement then…

Disk brakes exert masses of force on the frame, adding a strut just transfers the force from one stay that wasn't designed to take it to another.

pish.

There you go from Shand; pretty definitive!

An 18inch 95 Columbus max explosif is sub 4lbs… go retro!

You took the words right out of my mouth – those '95 Explosifs are nice frames.
I've got one that I converted to disc brakes four years ago – it's had loads of abuse and hasn't self-destructed yet….

MTBing is much radder than it used to be. XC whippets like light, so that's alu or more likely CF these days. Even way back steel was always heavier, and alu and CF have come on a lot since then.

Steel is strong though, so bikes to take abuse are being made steel.

Anyone know what the Enigma frame weighs?

Candodavids Curtis XC weighs 4.2lbs. I weighed it.

Call it 4.4lbs with paint.

Call it 4.4lbs with paint

The whole build feels like it weighs about that much!

Nice spotting pics from Sunday btw Colin! Sorry I couldn't make it.

Actually, since he's gone to Curtis today to get a disc mount put on (and hopefully a bracing strut too) it'll be a little more by the time it comes back.

There is a small bit of info about bikes in Modern Physical Metallurgy & Materials Engineering (Sixth Edition) by R.E.Smallman R.J.Bishop
"The latest type of low alloy steel for frames, available in either cold-drawn or heat treated condition (Reynolds 631 and 853), is air hardening. Although inherently very hard (400VPN), TIG welding increases its hardness in the HAZ. It possesses better fatigue resistance than other alloy steels and its strength / weight ratio make it competitive with Ti-3Al-2.5V alloy and composites."

OP was the frame a cheapy mass-market steel frame? There you go. You can go lighter but it'd be more money I bet.

Scienceofficer, the brace has always been there.