Right, I’m out of the office for most of today and by the time I get home I hope to see a healthy debate on this subject; fueled by anger, personal experience, badly sourced internet quotes, overheard experiences/chinese whispers, daily mail headlines and the odd reference to the daily mash.

Even better it will involve some fine trolling and internet warriors.

So, is cannabis safer than alcohol?

Does it really help people with chronic pain or are they too stoned to care anymore?

Should it have been re-classified then put back again? Should police waste their time with it?

Is it a right of passage?

Does it cause schizophrenia/drug induced psychosis, or are medical professionals asking about history of drug use, the patient (who in todays society it less ashamed of drug use) responds “i tried pot when i was 18 for a few months at Uni” and the doctors go “BAM, it must be the drugs!!!” ??

Does it alter development of the pre-frontal cortex during the essential years of personality development in teens?

Is todays “super skunk” a billion times stronger than the 60’s or are kids nowadays just more rad to the power of awesome?

on your marks, get set… fight!

chill out…man…have a smartie (the red ones are mine though, OK?)

The drug harm index is as good an answer to “So, is cannabis safer than alcohol?”

[Wonders if anyone will be able to have a reasonable fight before the thread is closed]

Legalise, tax it like fags and sell it like fags. 18 age limit. Would alleviate a shit load of crime/wasted police effort and contribute towards reducing the deficit

Can’t it be sold more like pick and mix than fags?

Legalise it, and sell it legitmatly like fags, with the living daylights taxed out of it..

We should do the same thing with heroin and then we would solve loads of petty bike theft and pull out of Afghaninstan at the same time.

that graph is fundamentally flawed. the vast majority of people who use cannabis use it with tobacco, so therefore for most people who smoke cannabis the ‘harm level’ (whatever that is) is over 3. I take it the tobacco score doesn’t include lung disease?

richcc – actually cannabis does not create a lot of crime – no one mugs grannies to pay for a spliff. Pot heads just sit around being dull

if you want to reduce crime legalise heroin. Junkies create a lot of crime – more than half of the sort of crime people complain a lot about – muggings and housebreaking.

a junkie with a good supply causes no problems, a junkie needing a fix mugs grannies to pay for their fix

Edit Wharton – you can find the methodology if you want but that is the best estimate of harm available. well researched peer reviewed stuff by experts in the field. But to you its flawed at a glance

I am sure that health costs are included hence why tobacco scores so highly. After all some who has smoke a few cigaretttes doesn’t go out on the rampage like someone who has drunk too much may.

cannabis ?

pretty much quasi-legal already, unless you’re a big dealer or producer

heroin and crack – that’s what we should be discussing (jeez, don’t you even watch Eastenders ?! 🙄 )

TJ,

Is it a chart that reflects the harm done to other people via crime etc while taking drugs, or the harm drugs do to the person taking them? Or both?

The irony of it all

TJ – fair enough but it would save coppers messing about looking for big houses/warehouses with big leccy bills and one, usually vietnamese, chap on the electoral register!

While you’re at it legalise heroin too. The ‘war on drugs’ is an exercise in stupidity. Was it Einstein that said that madness was doing the same thing again and again and expecting a different result?

Decriminalise imo, trying to tax it won’t work seeing as there’s an established ‘alternative’ market that’s been going for a good few years.

As for the medicinal thing, one of my mates has Crohn’s disease and reckons he’d be dead if it wasn’t for cannabis. Has been through pescription after pescription of anti-inflammatories, antibiotics and others with no change except suffering from the (mostly horrible) side effects.

I chose cannabis as the subject as its something a lot of people have personal experience with in one way or another…. I’d hopefully be able to safely guess that less people had the same level of experience with heroin and crack.

If i return later and check this thread to find everyone’s agreed with each other and STW has avoided arguing by heading off for a spliff together i will not be happy!

– actually cannabis does not create a lot of crime

can’t agree with this TJ
you may be correct in that it causes little direct crime but you have to consider the long term affect on the person.
IME the dope smurkers of society turn to layabout spongers who are unable to self reflect. they simply are unable to accept that they are at fault.
then there are the oportunitys missed ,the company fallen into and the lifestyle adopted.
no doubt this is not all dope smokers but it’s most in my view.

the dope smurkers of society turn to layabout spongers who are unable to self reflect.

why would smoking cause a loss of reflection skills?

maybe it would be interesting for people to put (if they’re willing to admit) if they have “personal experience” with cannabis in their post?

**remember kids, drugs are bad mmkay**

Decriminalise imo, trying to tax it won’t work seeing as there’s an established ‘alternative’ market that’s been going for a good few years.

I disagree entirely, custom and excise are brutal to those who don’t pay their taxes, its much worse than getting done for dealing. Anyway it would be cheaper. Look at fags, 5 quid for a pack (or more dunno) that much grass would be 20 quid, so the big tobacco guys will start grwoing pot massive. And why would you bother goign to some scumbags grotty bedsit to score when you can get it from the newsagents? And it will be certified so you know what you are getting?

How would legalising heroin stop junkies mugging/housebreaking? Is the suggestion that it would be free on the NHS? Surely, even in a legal context, junkies would still have to pay?

mine comes from living in shared households.
alack of self reflection in the dope smokers seems to be obvious.
never been a toker myself mind.

edit:and the mrs being involved in care case procedure.
she tends to agree with this point.

Wharton – IIRC (and you can find the methodology if you want easily) its all harm. To the individual and to society direct and indirect

so drug caused health issues, drug fuelled crime, lack of productive capacity – the lot.

tobbacco scores highly for killing people, alcohol for fuelling violence and killing people, heroin for fuelling crime

layabout spongers

Not a crime.

unable to self reflect

Not a crime.

oportunitys missed

Not a crime. Your spelling is though!

alack of self reflection in the dope smokers seems to be obvious

Certainly not the exclusive preserve of stoned people I am afraid.

There have been stoners in every single workplace I have worked in and some of the most talented, motivated and mentally heathy people I know like to puff a litte herb once in a while.

I have experience of smoking it, started when I was about 13, usage gradually increased, till I was smoking every day all throughout my late teens and twenties. 36 now, haven’t had any for about 2 years or so. stoped smoking heavily at uni when i was about 30.

Personally I think it should be partially legalised as a tincture for medical conditions.

Should it be available for people to get stoned with? I don’t think so. I suffered in my twenties with paranoia quite badly, this was definitely down to smoking. other people I know have suffered from psychosis and other such problems. On top of that skunk is so far removed from normal weed, legalizing that would be madness.

TJ, aah OK, but then in real terms the cannabis score could be viewed as not being wholly accurate as most people smoke it with tobacco, therefore, it should take on some of tobaccos score too? (I understand for the sake of the study they have just scored cannabis on its own, which is totally understandable)

Not a crime. Your spelling is though!
yep iknow.

i grant you not a crime but a right pain in the tits for those involved.

I know all about this, both through medical research and personal experience, I just can’t be arsed to get into a debate about it though.

cb – Member

How would legalising heroin stop junkies mugging/housebreaking? Is the suggestion that it would be free on the NHS? Surely, even in a legal context, junkies would still have to pay?

My opinion – just give ’em the smack.

At teh moment we give them methodione which costs far more than heroin, they don’t want it so still go out looking for heroin and its much easier to OD on

Purely pragmatic with no moral edge. Just giove ’em the smack free adn then they won’t bother us

I suspect it would reduce addiction as all the rebel / glamour element would disappear. Even if it didn’t it would stop the harm to society at a small cost. Imagine crime down by 50% with one step! An end to muggings and housebrakings?

fair play nonk, been in the same situation myself and had to move out after 3 months as it turned out they were spending the rent money on drugs and not paying utility bills…. mind you he was an idiot before he started smoking apparently so its hard to say.

in the interest of fairness i know some incredibly reflective smokers.

i wonder if initial IQ and level of personal development before starting smoking makes a difference to the resulting personality, or if heavy smoking sends everyone down the same pathe ventually, its just a matter of time before they end up in one of my units worrying about the goverment putting satelites in their brain.

According to someone I was talking to, in Switzerland smack is legal. If you want your fix you have to go into town and get in the queue with all of the other broken looking souls. It is shameful, but not a crime and that shame has managed to put more kids off doing it than anything else.

As I said in a post a few weeks ago, drug users may be sick, but they are rarely criminals. Legalise the lot.

The drug harm index is as good an answer

I wonder what those numbers represent ? I would have put alcohol WAY above all the other drugs in terms of harm, particularly to people other than those taking it

I reckon using it is stupid, but it should be legalised and controlled.

I agree with Teej here, give it to them, I’ll bet the insuarnce companies could be persuaded to cough up soemthign to pay for this too. Most of the petty crime round here is junkies nicking stuff for their next fix. That means bikes!

mind you he was an idiot before he started smoking

Well yes this is allways the cloudy bit. 😀

TSY, if you’re reading this… would you not care to throw in an opinion to the mix? or if not an opinion some good leading questions that get people thinking/debating more?

its not like you HAVE to come back and argue with people who disagree… leave them to it and angry at their comps due to you not responding 😆

i’d be interesting to know your opinion 🙂 but fair play if you cant be arsed…

If it is legalised and the government starts to sell it what are all of the people who are currently involved in the production and distribution of it going to do? I can’t see them being overly happy about having to go out and earn a living legally.

If it is legalised and the government starts to sell it what are all of the people who are currently involved in the production and distribution of it going to do? I can’t see them being overly happy about having to go out and earn a living legally.

who gives a f*ck?

Cannabis? I think the Dutch / Portuguese approach is nearer the right one.

don’t criminalise users but they go after importers / growers.

Skunk is not that much more strong than other cannabis and no stronger than high quality stuff from decades ago. However the mix of cannabinoids in it may be different and that may havce some effect on mental health

Certainly there is a link between cannabis and mental health issues but what that link is is still debatable. 3 hypothesis – Cause, trigger or co incidence. ie cannabis causes psychosis, cannabis acts as a trigger in susceptible individuals or people who are going to develop psychosis smoke cannabis.

I think its trigger effect myself. I know respectable successful professional people who smoke / have smoked cannabis – some a lot of it for years. If yo are not susceptible to psychosis then smoking cannabis won’t cause any great issues.

Ho Hum makes a very good point, if the government legalise it they will add taxes, so won’t dealers just undercut them? so nothing solved, other than opening up drugs to people who never had access to them before it was legalised.

toys19 – Member

If it is legalised and the government starts to sell it what are all of the people who are currently involved in the production and distribution of it going to do? I can’t see them being overly happy about having to go out and earn a living legally.

who gives a f*ck?

My point is mate that these people will probably turn to other types of crime to fund their lifestyles and therefore we will have just displaced the criminals rather than actually reducing crime in total.

level of personal development before starting smoking makes a difference

more than likely.

Let’s say I share Warton’s experience above. I though have never suffered the paranoia etc which has made it more difficult for me to stop. The biggest problem I have now is sleeping, or lack of, I just can’t get to sleep and when I do I spend the whole night dreaming – I suppose I have half a life time’s dreaming to catch up upon.

Legalising it. Not sure. Trying to criminalise it seems pointless and there maybe a large amount of money for the country in it. At the same time would we as a country end up in the same position we are with alcohol (which has caused me much much more ‘immediate’ harm than the weed).

Certainly there is a link between cannabis and mental health issues but what theat link is is still debatable. 3 hypothesis – Cause, trigger of co incidence. ie cannabis causes psychosis, cannabis acts as a trigger in susceptible individuals or people who are going to develop psychosis smoke cannabis.

well described

I think its trigger effect myself. I know respectable successful professional people who smoke / have smoked cannabis – some a lot of it for years. If yo are not susceptible to psychosis then smoking cannabis won’t cause any great issues.

agreed, however i think its a mix of:

a)trigger efect – cannabis triggering an episode of drug induced psychosis in individuals who are pre-disposed to a mental illness when there is a strong enough trigger

(EDIT: “strong enough trigger” could be anything from a death of a relative to being fired, its entirely individual and could be anything.. although usually stressful)

b)a larger amount of people not being ashamed to admit to smoking when younger, health professionals being quick to assume that it played a part in the patients current mental state.

c)if someone smokes enough… even if they weren’t pre-disposed to psychosis, it will cause some paranoia… that level will depend on a billion different factors in that persons life and more often than not, stopping smoking will reduce/stop the paranoia

d)people with paranoia will have the problem increased by smoking

thats all from experience working with patients, working in the music industry, living with smokers… in the interests of saving people time later.. i am not willing to waste my time searching for links to back up my opinions, i’d rather post pictures of cats with odd captions