Builder starts doing work for a hotel owner, sadly unaware that hotel owner has a history of failing to pay contractors. Builder ends up having to sue hotel owner for 50k. Straightforward so far.

Meanwhile, unbeknown to builder, the bank repossess the hotel. The bank subcontract the practicalities of repossessing the property to a contractor. The contractor, on the instructions of the bank who are concerned about 1) security and 2) public liability, take down the builders scaffolding (about 20k worth) and sell it, the proceeds going back to the bank.

There was nothing on the scaffolding from which the contractors could identify who owned it.

I reckon the bank are liable for seeing the builder right, but can’t see them being in a rush to pay up. What do the lawyers think?

Not many small builders own their own scaffolding – most would hire it from a local scaffolding subcontractor. Larger builders would use SGB or similar.

This one does/did.

Not many small builders own their own scaffolding – most would hire it from a local scaffolding subcontractor. Larger builders would use SGB or similar.

Cool story.

Not that relevant though ?

Selling property that belongs to someone else is basically theft isn’t it ?

Inform the police maybe ? That might speed things up a bit.

I’m not a lawyer either, but surely the first thing is report the theft to the Police ? Get a crime number and speak to their insurers, let the insurance company of your mates firm fight it out with the receivers.

true .. tough news i m afraid.. mate had a performance shop and when it went belly up all the customers engines were sold by the liquidator (to a scrap man..) and the engine owners became unsecured creditors of the garage and got nowt..

Surely that is theft as others have said. Surely the bank should have a reasonable idea that a property being renovated will have scaffolding provided by a contractor not the property owner….?

I am the police, and this guy came in to see us about it. It’s not theft because there’s been no dishonesty, but there has been a cock up somewhere along the line, which I reckon, but am not certain, is up to the bank to put right.

Generally the bank would not have had title to the scaffolding so would not have been able to sell. If the bank takes possession of premises over which they have a charge (either by way of debenture or legal mortgage) i think they would have appointed receivers to manage the building who would, as bailees, have a duty to take reasonable care of any other parties goods on the property and there are certain statutory provions that apply before these can be disposed of (see Torts (Interference With Goods)Act. If this has not been complied with then the most obvious course would be an action against the bank / receivers for conversion. Sometimes the receivers may argue that they are agent’s for the company (if thats what the charge provides for)but if the company has gone through then this agency could be said to have come to an end and the receivers would the be actings as agents for the bank making the bank potentially liable for the loss.

Thanks Nipper99, much appreciated.

I am the police, and this guy came in to see us about it. It’s not theft because there’s been no dishonesty

Of course there has.

How many hotels have their own scaffolding that they get out of storage and use whenever they have work done ? 🙄

It was blindingly obvious that the scaffolding did not belong to the hotel. And yet they sold it anyway.

Surely the owner can prove he is the owner
Then the bank will have to rein burst the owner
pretty simple

If all else fails the builder could do the building equivalent of the farmer who showered natwest with muck. Brick up the doors? Dig up the pavement outside?

Who has acted dishonestly neal?

It was sold on the instructions of the bank who at that time owned the hotel. It had been there almost a year. They could not identify who it belonged to and the shyster who previously owned the hotel had gone abroad.

If you left a pair of pants in a hotel room and 6 months later they threw them away would you complain that they’d stolen them, because in principle it’s the same.

Who has acted dishonestly neal?

It was sold on the instructions of the bank who at that time owned the hotel. It had been there almost a year. They could not identify who it belonged to.

As the last builder that had done work at the Hotel had sued them for £50K

It would have been fairly easy to figure out who the scaffolding belonged to don’t you reckon ?

But the obviously just wanted to recoup their own losses in whatever way possible.

Odd the builder didn’t take it down sooner, given he wasn’t being paid and he had an asset tied up at the hotel.

I’ve just arranged collection of a load of goods from a subcontractor who folded, the minute we heard they’d folded we were straight onto the administrator to arrange collection of our goods (which we have title of) as if we don’t collect pronto they’ll just be sold off as scrap.

How would the bank know who the builder was? He had stopped working, but left his scaffolding, prior to the repossession. The builder didn’t know it had been repossessed until he went up the other day. The bank just care about securing the site and getting it sold ASAP. While there may well have been negligence in not looking after the scaffolding, which is what I’m asking those that know civil law, is no dishonesty and therefore not a theft. That’s just how it is pal.

I am the police

Mint! The cops with presumably unrestricted access to the law and judiciary now come on here for advice.

I think we’ve come full circle. This place is getting a reputation for its high quality advice. Luckily for plod they can skip the wheel-size debate as their shiny German motors already come with lots of different sizes.

That’s just how it is pal.

They knew for a fact it didn’t belong to the hotel (hotels don’t own £20k’s worth of scaffolding just in case they need it)

So they knew for a fact it belonged to someone else.

So it was dishonest to sell it as though it were an asset of the hotel owner in my view.

But if you want to think otherwise, that’s up to you.

is no dishonesty and therefore not a theft. That’s just how it is pal.

With neal here WhoTF thinks the hotel owns the scaffolding?
How do they not know he has been sued by this builder?

IANAL nor a copper

Indeed scuttler, although our access to all things pertaining to civil law is limited to google same as everyone else!

Thanks to those that could answer the query, I’ll pass that on.

footflaps, indeed, but tradesmen are not renowned for their urgency up here in the Highlands!

Ah ,Scottish Law,that’s a whole new googling adventure for the STW keyboard krew.

If there is a hire contract then it would be clear theft although in the absence of one I would suggest shaky ground for the builder.

Standard practice in the building trade to clear off site all tools ect once a job looks dodgy, I know of a guy who had installed windows on a build when the administrators were appointed. He went round first weekend and ripped them all out. In the end the administrator paid upfront to have them installed again, he did the work twice but got paid, if he hadn’t he would of got nothing.

Lawyers – civil matter following bank repossession

Yes your honour I have the precedents from STW for this type of case and as I’m sure you will find….

You/Your mate need what is known as PROPER LEGAL ADVICE

Mint! The cops with presumably unrestricted access to the law and judiciary now come on here for advice.

The judiciary doesn’t give legal advice. The CPS (or, I suppose, procurator fiscal or whatever) doesn’t practice civil law and cops’ access to legal advice from them is very restricted. Insolvency law is surprisingly complicated and I’d imagine it doesn’t get any easier when you’re sitting in a noisy police station trying to stop people stabbing each other. Weirdly, a lot of insolvency cases are to do with scaffolding.

PROPER LEFAL ADVICE

Never heard of it.

mikewsmith – Member

You/Your mate need what is known as PROPER LEFAL ADVICE

Lefal’s advice is:

Proper.

no idea what you mean?? (quick use of edit button)

The bank would surely have known that the scaffolding didn’t belong to the hotel, and I would have thought they’d have been able to track down the builder from the hotel’s outstanding debts.

There could have been a couple of reasons for the builder leaving their scaffolding – safety, or the thought that the situation might be resolved and they’d finish the job, or blackmail (“I won’t move the unsightly scaffolding until I’m paid!’ sort of thing).

I guess the bank can only really get away with the ‘We weren’t being dishonest’ line if they can prove they took steps to identify the owner other than looking at it and shrugging because there’s no sign,

Just needs to sue the bank and should be easy enough to prove the bank didn’t take reasonable steps to identify the owner of the scaffolding before it was disposed of. Could get expensive though (assuming the bank want to go to court rather than admit the mistake and reimburse beforehand).

The contractor/bank did not have title to sell the scaffolding, in theory if builder can find out who it was sold to he can go and take it back, new ‘owner’ doesnt have ownership as title didnt pass – in theory – same as someone selling a lease car or stolen goods.

It will be very hard to show theft, you (prosecuting authority) have to prove dishonest intention at the time of sale – all contractor has to plead is stupidity and ignorance, which wont be hard.

Bank and contractor though have committed tortious acts agaisnt builder, builder should engage solicitor and commence proceedings against bank, they will cave in eventually.