- This topic has 48 replies, 24 voices, and was last updated 7 years ago by theotherjonv.
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Kids going 'off the rails'
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theotherjonvFull Member
Genuine situation, and genuinely it’s a friend’s daughter, not mine.
She’s 13. She has a reasonably serious boyfriend, in the same year at school, and they are sexually active despite the parents’ intent. However rather than being discrete she’s been somewhat open about it and the school are therefore also aware. It’s also ‘suspected with a degree of certainty’ that some of these activities have taken place on school premises or on school trips.
No-one wants to drop the boy in it to the fullest extent of the law (if I understand correctly the ‘blame’ would land more on him than her) but it cannot continue in its current form – if they’re intent on pursuing then there’s a parental acceptance that it’s nigh on impossible to stop but also that school premises / backs of bus shelters are not suitable.
I’ve been asked what i’d do, and after the flippant answers involving bombers / baseball bats – frankly I don’t know. And what role does the school have – there seems to be a degree of blind-eyeing it either because they don’t know how to deal with it or maybe because term ends in 2 days and then it’ll hopefully be resolved outside.
CougarFull MemberGiven that the horse is already bolted I’d be ensuring that they’re safe as a priority I reckon.
mikewsmithFree MemberSerious version, probably need to be talking to the lads parents at this point
Fresh Goods Friday 696: The Middling Edition
Latest Singletrack VideosFresh Goods Friday 696: The Middlin...konagirlFree MemberYep, at this point she is acting as an adult, treat her like one, offer support and guidance – ensure she’s using contraception, suggest mum offers to go to the clinic with her if she wants, make sure she knows not to be pressurised and just be there for her if things get emotional.
MoreCashThanDashFull MemberSafety and precautions have to take priority if it’s too late to stop it, sadly. Unlikely to be a priority for social services if you reported it. Though if the lad is older than her he might end up on the sex offenders register at some point if they got the Police involved.
Seem to recall the first pregnancy at my school back in the day was about this age. My 13 year old lad is away most of the next two weeks on various music related courses/tours. Gave him a reminder of his age and responsibilities when I dropped him off this morning. A bit of embarrassment goes a long way.
mindmap3Free MemberGiven that the horse is already bolted I’d be ensuring that they’re safe as a priority I reckon.
Agree with that. I’d have thought that it was better for said activities to be take place somewhere safe rather than a park bench etc.
If they’ve acting like grown ups, a frank and open conversation should probably take place.
theotherjonvFull MemberThey know it. They’re as against it as the girls parents (the families have known each other through school since about age 5) but the kids won’t be told. Short of finding a way of tagging them so they can’t be in the same location together (which at school is not an option) all reasonable steps have been taken. Which is why my advice is broadly to give up trying, make sure they don’t get pregnant, and be ready to pick up the pieces as long as the pieces aren’t too shattered.
The bigger fear is that the school feels it has to take action, particularly if it happens on school premises, and whether there is a non-nuclear option if they do. Sure – you can spell that out that to 13 year olds in big red capitals but if they just ignore you, then what can you do?
johndohFree MemberFrom what I understand, the police would be unlikely to get involved as it is consensual and they are the same age – if he was over 16 it would be very different though.
I agree with others that they need a frank conversation (perhaps with both sets of parents and both kids together).
bigyinnFree MemberCan a minor engaging in sexual activity with another consenting minor be prosecuted for having sex with a minor?
Or is it a double negative and they cancel each other out?I really do wonder if our definition of a minor needs to be reviewed? Given kids seem to be sexually active at a younger age and girls are apparently reaching puberty at a younger age now as well?
Personally I’d lock them in a room on their own for 8 years once hormones start kicking in.
JunkyardFree Member13 year kids having sex is nothing new and whether I approve or not they are unlikely to stop having sex because I disapprove. Apparently sex is quite god fun….who knew
Safe sex, frank discussion, broad ground rules
you have to deal with the reality if the situation rather than trying and enforce what you want to happen
They are teenagers nothing a boring middle aged adult was going to stop me having sex then or now frankly
As for prosecution they are both committing an offence [ neither can consent] but if you think having them prosecuted and on the sex offenders register is going to hep the situation or their future then you really need to have a word with yourself
Manage the reality don’t try and create your ideal scenario
yunkiFree MemberWhilst I sympathise with your outrage there CharlieMungus, it seems odd to me that you would be seeking to hold the school responsible for your parenting mistakes!
EDIT: where’s his post gone?
CharlieMungusFree MemberWhilst I sympathise with your outrage there CharlieMungus, it seems odd to me that you would be holding the school responsible for your parenting mistakes!
I would expect the support of the school in stopping my daughter from being penetrated by a schoolmate. Not responsible for my mistakes (if it were that simple), but responsible for her care
CharlieMungusFree MemberHow do you know whether it’s consensual?
agreed! at 13, the child is not able to give consent
StoatsbrotherFree MemberJust renewed my level 3 child protection training…
Age 13+ is above the age where Police intervention is mandatory. And yes – JY and others are wrong, they can consent, but cannot be assumed to be doing so without further information. Below 13, consent is not possible and it is automatically a criminal offence.
If there is not a great age/power/intellect imbalance between the two of them, it is relatively unlikely that Social Services will intervene very heavily…
BUT – the school has a duty of care for what happens on their premises, and if it is happening on school premises will be forced to act. They really have little or no leeway on that.
First issues are risk containment, eg pregnancy and disease, education and ensuring that this is genuinely consensual. 13-16 year olds differ so hugely emotionally and in terms of their perceived ownership of their own bodies that we cannot make judgements about that on this forum, but someone needs to.
konagirlFree MemberI appreciate it’s not ideal, but as junky says, you have to deal with reality. If as the op said she is openly discussing it then we have to assume it is consensual. Perhaps they need to sit down and talk through the legalities, not only in respect to their age but also public decency laws, in case the kids aren’t aware but threatening the school is not going to help anyone.
cinnamon_girlFull MemberStoatsbrother – that’s helpful info and you’re spot on with this:
13-16 year olds differ so hugely emotionally and in terms of their perceived ownership of their own bodies that we cannot make judgements about that on this forum, but someone needs to.
5thElefantFree Memberagreed! at 13, the child is not able to give consent
Which one?
GrahamSFull Memberagreed! at 13, the child is not able to give consent
Okay, but if you accept that then the lad is too young to consent as well.
crankboyFree Memberjust finished a two year investigation and prosecution for a similar case with a community order no prison no sex offender registration no sexual harm prevention order , which was a bit of a result . The risk had it gone wrong was 5 years plus in prison sex offender registration and a life time sexual harm prevention order (asbo for sex offenders) . i have ongoing another client where i am trying years after the event to unpick the harm being done by a conviction for underage sex that resulted in an equivalent to a SHPO.
Adults who facilitate under age sex could also be prosecuted. The school my at some point feel obliged to act ..By posting the above i am not seeking to moralise just to illustrate the actual legal risks.
teenagers will be interested in sex and will become sexually active at some point in some way , lots of talking and guidance plus ensuring they are protected as much as possible. The only teenage girl i know now has the benefit of a cool step mum who can talk to her as a near equal and explain the risks in a caring rather than preachy way.
yossarianFree Memberanother pretty experienced Safeguarding bod here – listen very carefully to crankboy and stoatsbrother.
johndohFree MemberHow do you know whether it’s consensual?
From the description given in the OP it seems that the pair of them are carrying on all over the place despite the efforts of both sets of parents to keep them apart.
JunkyardFree Memberthey can consent
Poorly worded on my part clarified by others
Its still an actual offence [ ie consent does not alter the law] was what I meant though, clearly, not what I said
geetee1972Free MemberNot sure if fascinating is the right word here but it’s a certainly a very interesting thread.
I always thought that I would be more worried being the father of daughters but these days I can see there are as many reasons to be worried about being the father of sons as well.
cinnamon_girlFull MemberFrom the description given in the OP it seems that the pair of them are carrying on all over the place despite the efforts of both sets of parents to keep them apart.
That doesn’t answer the question though does it? Coerced? Forced? Threatened? Blackmail?
yunkiFree Memberby him or her?
When I was a 13 year old boy there was no chance that me or any other 13 year old boys were getting anywhere near any of the girls in our year that were already sexually active.. they were like adults in comparison to us (and in the early 80s, their boyfriends usually had their own car)
geetee1972Free MemberThat doesn’t answer the question though does it? Coerced? Forced? Threatened? Blackmail?
I think as long as you’re suggesting that either party could be the victim here then you have a point.
cinnamon_girlFull MemberI think as long as you’re suggesting that either party could be the victim here then you have a point.
Yes and no geetee, boys are invariably physically stronger than girls. They’re both victims imo.
johndohFree MemberThat doesn’t answer the question though does it? Coerced? Forced? Threatened? Blackmail?
Yes there is a possibility of that, that is undeniable but, again from the wording of the OP post, it seems both parties have had many opportunities to discuss the situation with their parents yet they are still carrying on doing what they both apparently want to do.
I am more than certain that if any parent had the slightest suspicion that anything that was not consensual was going on they would have done something about it already (other than asking friends what to do).
geetee1972Free MemberYes and no geetee, boys are invariably physically stronger than girls. They’re both victims imo.
Well at that age the strength argument might or might not be true. But regardless of that all the means of coercion you cited above do not rely on physical strength so actually that is immaterial to the argument.
You’re tapping into an undercurrent of frustration and anger that men and boys are automatically regarded as perpetrators and that only men can be guilty of sex crimes. It’s an entirely wrong assumption and apart from anything else it’s deeply sexist and incredibly offensive to men.cinnamon_girlFull MemberI am more than certain that if any parent had the slightest suspicion that anything that was not consensual was going on they would have done something about it already (other than asking friends what to do).
Maybe, maybe not. But I do think the parents involved need to be reminded that these are still children who expect, rightly, to receive guidance from their parents.
cinnamon_girlFull MemberYou’re tapping into an undercurrent of frustration and anger that men and boys are automatically regarded as perpetrators and that only men can be guilty of sex crimes. It’s an entirely wrong assumption and apart from anything else it’s deeply sexist and incredibly offensive to men.
Nope and am sorry if it came across that way. I used words that could apply to both male and female but am guilty of generalising when it came to physical strength.
geetee1972Free MemberNope and am sorry if it came across that way.
Understood – thanks for the clarity.
I recently listened to a debate on this subject by a group of female politicians all of whom only made references specifically to boys being the ‘perpetrators’ (they specifically used that word) as if that were the only possible scenario.
When it comes to the diaglogue used to debate this issue, that is almost exclusively how the debate is framed.
cinnamon_girlFull MemberI recently listened to a debate on this subject by a group of female politicians all of whom only made references specifically to boys being the ‘perpetrators’ (they specifically used that word) as if that were the only possible scenario.
When it comes to the diaglogue used to debate this issue, that is almost exclusively how the debate is framed.
Ah but politicians aren’t in the real world are they? Or they’ve not been engaging with their constituents.
Of course it’s wrong and they’ve clearly not been paying attention to what gets reported in the news. There’s really no excuse for that type of sexism.
poahFree MemberI thought if they were of similar age with consent the home office guidlines are not to prosecute (E&W), in scotland both can be prosecuted for oral,vaginal or anal even if they consent but a fingering is fine lol
I can’t see the prosecution of two minors engaging in sexual activities consentially being in the public interest though unless they are doing it in public etc
D0NKFull MemberOkay, but if you accept that then the lad is too young to consent as well.
yes, I was confused why originally there seemed to be agreement that the lad would be in bother for this, shirley if they’re the same age then it’s all down to specifics (and as C_G says any coercion). Crankboys post, if I read it right, seems to be hinting at boys being able to get themselves into a lot of trouble in similar scenarios – troubling.
CougarFull MemberWhilst it’s true that boys / men are not always the “perpetrators” of sexual misconduct cases, we’re veering awfully close to the “not all men…” argument. It is very wrong to automatically assume that any blame must lie solely with the lad, but I’d hazard that it holds true in the vast majority of abuse cases.
geetee1972Free Memberbut I’d hazard that it holds true in the vast majority of abuse cases.
Given that the research suggests that these cases are vastly under reported I would suggest that the closest guess you can hazard is that we haven’t got a clue.
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