Well at least I have been elevated from casual racist to “partisan idiot” now

You are one because of the other, and I don’t hate idiots, I just think they are idiots.

“clodhopper – anyone bringing Hitler into a debate on anti-semetism in today’s ‘sound bite’ news media is on to a loser.”

Why? Do you think it’s important to ignore historical fact? Livingstone was making the point that Zionism, in the form that exists in Israel which is used to justify murder and oppression, was in fact supported by Hitler. IE, what Livingstone sees as a vile, xenophobic ideology, was supported by a vile xenophobe.

“the message that gets through is one of suggesting that “Hitler wasn’t as bad as he’s made out” which in the context of trying to calm down a debate on anti-jewish propaganda that was shared by an MP is pouring petrol on the flames.”

Bullshit. You and others have chosen to take this view; not everyone shares it.

@molgrips, sure, but using words like “final solution” when discussing Israel or Jewish people is so obviously crass and clearly intended to elicit the response that it got.

no?

People who oppose Zionism are equally likely to have heroes amongst Marx, Trotsky, Luxembourg, Ygael Gluckstein, Ernest Mandel. Anti-Semitism doesn’t come into it.
I used to see a guy quite frequently from the Friends of Israel. His attitude was that all ethnic groups are in competition with one another. Hence self promotion, group promotion, justifying the unjustifiable, self referencing and name dropping are all very legitimate activities. Any criticism must be put down as racist as it shuts it up most effectively.

I wonder how many of the Labour MPs calling for his suspension happen to fall in the anti-Corbyn camp?

By no means all, see Jon Lansman’s, one of Corbyn’s biggest allies, twitter feed.

The original comments are definitely dodgy and probably anti-semitic. Ken Livingstone is a bit of a tit however it’s simply a historical fact that there was a pact between zionists and the nazis.

And there is most definitely a concerted and well-funded campaign to brand any criticism of Israel as anti-semitic.

“the message that gets through is one of suggesting that “Hitler wasn’t as bad as he’s made out”

Ridiculous straw man.

Hitler hardly went bonkers towards the end, within a year of getting into power anti-Jewish legislation was starting to be passed.

But you really have to query why the labour leadership are allowing Ken to do press on this issue when he isn’t elected and has previous. It was an internal issue, deal with it and move on, now its exploded and shows really poor judgement on behalf of the party leadership.

Why? Do you think it’s important to ignore historical fact?”

The only historic fact that 99% of people will recognise in asscoiation with hitler is WW2 and the genocide. His ‘early work’ beyond burnign books etc is unknown to them.

To suggest that people should be educated is all well and good but Ken chose not to give the background to his claims in the interview he gave. the result is what you see now.

You and others have chosen to take this view; not everyone shares it.

There’s holocaust deniers all over social media saying what a great job Ken’s done today. Yes, not everyone believes that linking Hitler to the Israeli state is not, at the very least, in poor taste but other than historians taking a very long term and objective view they’ll *tend* to have issues which might be seen as difficult to justify by others.

I’ll reiterate;

Anyone using Hitler in the defence of an anti-semitic article is likely not to be well received by a large proportion of the population.

why the labour leadership are allowing Ken to do press on this issue

I doubt that Livingstone has any interest in the views of the Labour press team when it comes to agreeing to do interviews. He’s an embarrassment and an opportunity rolled into one, depending on your allegiance.

Well said Grum. I imagine Corbyn’s office are all currently sitting with their heads in their hands, wishing Livingstone had never opened his gob. But I think the real danger here is that such words get labelled ‘anti-Semitic’ when they really aren’t, and yet again the focus is shifted away from Israel.

The reality is, that every single day, Palestinian homes are bulldozed, and Palestinians abused, beaten and even killed. Palestinian children are put in jail and abused. Israeli police and armed forces routinely abuse Human Rights legislation. Israelis guilty of murder are protected by a xenophobic state. Arabs are second class citizens in their own homeland. Racism and prejudice are rife. And yes; there are elements like Hamas born of hate, which also commit atrocities on innocent people.

But we aren’t discussing that, because we’re too busy foaming at the mouth at what some gobby fringe politician said.

Far more worrying is that any attempt at discussion is shouted down in such an unpleasant way.
>>During the interview, Livingstone said Hitler had supported Zionism “before he went mad and ended up killing 6 million Jews”
Seems to be sound (http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v13/v13n4p29_weber.html) and is hardly defending hitler.

>>Challenged about his comments on BBC News, Livingstone said people should not confuse criticising the government of Israel with being antisemitic. He said you would not find anyone in the Labour party saying anything antisemitic without being expelled recently.

Nothing offensive there.

>> and claimed there was a “well-orchestrated campaign by the Israel lobby to smear anybody who criticises Israeli policy as antisemitic”.

Which is exactly what seems to be happening here. For stating some historically accurate facts and that it is not anti-semitic to criticise Israel there are loud calls for for Livingstone to be expelled for being….yes, an anti-semite.

@junkyard

See if you criticise Israel then some person comes along as says you are a racist as they know its a deeply personal insult that will enrage the poster and it saves them the trouble of having to defend Israel

Oh the irony. I wouldn’t for one minute call you a racist but you have used this strategy on countless occasions.

And in all of this, no-one seems to be asking ‘what is causing this apparent rise in anti-Semitism’?

Livingstone has been suspended by the party…

Ken’s work is done. He has whipped up a load of hysteria, and will now quietly sit back and watch the flames rise. There will now be far more debate surrounding Israel than if he’d not said anything at all. Which is what Livingstone wanted- he believes that Labour aren’t addressing the Israel-Palestine conflict adequately, and has now created a situation where there will be increased polarisation amongst people, and increased debate. He’ll no doubt do very well from TV/Media appearances etc. Whatever you think of his comments, he’s played this very well for himself personally. I just wish he’d use his undoubted intellect more effectively, but then maybe he thinks the only way to crack a nut is with a sledgehammer.

“The reality is, that every single day…”

and we’re on to the ‘whataboutery’.

the issue is whether what an MP shared on facebook before becoming an MP was anti-semitic. Her original apology acknowledged it was and gave reasons. Ken’s trying to say it wasn’t ‘because Hitler’ (obviously it’s more nuanced than that).

I’m all for criticising Israel, I think it’s one of the most repressive and generally repellant governments in the world. I’m careful not to use language that might make me sound anti-Jewish when I do so though. Ken chose not to be and this is the result.

wwaswas; You are aware that those are simply your own views, and not facts, don’t you? It would be helpful if you were to state ‘In my opinion’ in accompaniment to your posts.

You’ll need to be more specific about which bits you think are opinions disguised as facts.

and if you could do the same for your posts that would be great.

” Ken’s trying to say it wasn’t ‘because Hitler’ “

That bit for starters. That’s your own interpretation, not fact. Others have different views.

“I’m careful not to use language that might make me sound anti-Jewish when I do so though. Ken chose not to be and this is the result.”

Ken hasn’t said anything that is ‘anti-Jewish’.

“and we’re on to the ‘whataboutery’.”

So you say. But isn’t this all ultimately about the actions of the Israeli government? Which is without question the catalyst for the wave of anger (and at times the increase in anti-Semitism, sadly) directed towards that state? That thing that we aren’t actually discussing, because we’re too busy arguing about what a gobby self-publicising fringe politician has to say?

Ken’s trying to say it wasn’t ‘because Hitler’ (obviously it’s more nuanced than that).

In fact so much more nuanced that it renders the first bit of your sentence utterly stupid.

Ken bringing up Hitler’s alliance with the Zionists may have been inappropriate and ill-advised, it is however a fact – one of those things that very few people know about, and it seems like you’re not allowed to mention. Why is that?

There is a big issuein Sweden about islamists joining the Swedish Green Party and Labour party. Out of pure coincidence, these are the two parties that are actively on the Palestinian side and denounce Israel and its policies in various forms.

The type of islamists that are pally with Erdogan and the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt and think that shaking women’s hands is beneath them and whatnot.

This is the top of the iceberg.

isn’t this all ultimately about the actions of the Israeli government

well the premise of this particular thread was Ken joining the debate in attempt to calm things down as they’d got a bit heated…

Ken hasn’t said anything that is ‘anti-Jewish’.

I said that the way he presented what he was saying made him sound anti-Jewish.

I’ll repeat: anyone using Hitler in the context of anti-semitism/anti-Israel debates needs to be very careful, Ken wasn’t (in my opinion and, from what I’ve seen elsewhere this is shared widely enough for it to be considered ‘a fact’)

Ken bringing up Hitler’s alliance with the Zionists may have been inappropriate and ill-advised, it is however a fact – one of those things that very few people know about

this is exactly my point – a little known fact that he didn’t care to explain just threw in a remark. The fact is that most people, not knowing this little known fact (or it would be a widely known fact), will assume he’s saying something a bit daft about Hitler and the Jews. the fact is that this is what has happened.

I think the thing that’s missing here is human behaviour. Often when a person dislikes another person, they don’t say it outright as that might be rude, but they try to prevoke argument using careful language.

This is what Ken Livingstone is doing here. For example when he compares the lives lost by Palestinians to Israeli’s ratio to be a reason to cry war crimes, when our own and the US government have done far worse in the middle east without the threat of the terrorists being on the doorstep!

His remarks to compare to Hitler are just obviously there as a middle finger up to show how much popular backing he has, that he can be openly anti-semitic and get away with it.

I can assure you he does not care about the Palestinians, he is using the issue as a cover to be anti-semitic and anyone who thinks differently is kidding themselves.

this is exactly my point – a little known fact that he didn’t care to explain just threw in a remark. The fact is that most people, not knowing this little known fact (or it would be a widely known fact), will assume he’s saying something a bit daft about Hitler and the Jews. the fact is that this is what has happened.

I already said I think his comments were ill-advised, but you’re basically arguing that you can’t say stuff that’s true because stupid people don’t know it’s true and won’t bother to find out. Hmmm….

For example when he compares the lives lost by Palestinians to Israeli’s ratio to be a reason to cry war crimes, when our own and the US government have done far worse in the middle east without the threat of the terrorists being on the doorstep!

Two wrongs, etc….

“I can assure you”

Somehow, I’m not feeling very assured. I wonder why?

I feel that I’ve foolishly allowed myself to become embroiled in an online argument, which sadly, inevitably, will probably descend into egotistical clashes and an outlet for individual insecurities and frustrations if left to run it’s natural course, as happens more or less every time such a subject comes up.

So for that reason, I’m out.

solamanda – Member

they try to prevoke argument using careful language. This is what Ken Livingstone is doing here.

If that’s careful language I wonder what careless language would look like. quklwerbh cefb8o0, probably.

The evidence that Ken or Naz are anti-semites seems wafer thin. Just another witch hunt and suspending them is just playing to the mob IMHO.

During the interview, Livingstone said Hitler had supported Zionism “before he went mad and ended up killing 6 million Jews”

But its wrong, he didn’t go mad he hated jews from the beginning and supporting zionism was an excuse to force them out.

If we want a debate about Israels policies and likewise Iran’s, feel free, but Ken wasn’t doing that, he was just stirring up trouble on an issue that weakens Labour, for no gain but his own notoriety.

when our own and the US government have done far worse in the middle east without the threat of the terrorists being on the doorstep!

But Ken is completely consistent in this – he’s said he thinks Blair should stand trial for war crimes and that our actions in the Middle East made the UK more dangerous.

http://gu.com/p/4ekfp?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

I see Ken’s been suspended by Labour. Wouldn’t you think they’d rather have him inside the tent, urinating outwards…

You can’t say stuff that’s true because stupid people don’t know it’s true

I’ve repeatedly said he *chose* not to give context and background.

You don’t have to be stupid to not know a fact. I suspect Stephen Hawking (as an example) wasn’t aware of it.

Anyone relying on a little known fact when introducing Hitler to an argument on anti-semitism and expecting everyone to scurry off to wkipedia to validate the statement is naive and, maybe, only stupid peiople would expect it to happen?

In possibly related news, Diane Abbott is busy today. @deletedbymps

I see Ken’s been suspended by Labour. Wouldn’t you think they’d rather have him inside the tent, urinating outwards…

That isn’t an option – you can have Ken outside, pissing in, or Ken in and still pissing all over the place.

Netanyahu – “Hitler wasn’t a bad man, it was the Palestinians that persuaded him to start the holocaust”

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.681525

If we could just do away with all the religious bollocks, we wouldn’t have this issue.

No one labels you racist if you are anti European Union or even anti United Kingdom. There’s no or not enough religion involved. Anti Israel though and (literally) god help you.

Still though, was listening to Ken on the radio this morning and did think he was digging a very big hole there.

Have to agree with dragon,!?!? Ken’s a liability these days, he was way past it the last time he ran for mayor, that should’ve signalled his retirement.

The whole anti-Semitism nonsense is just another attempt by the blairites to bash Corbs, as the Torys wreck the NHS, you’d think they should be focusing on that

http://newsthump.com/2016/04/28/i-dream-of-the-day-when-a-jew-can-lead-labour-party-says-equality-campaigner/

And now for a statment from a Jewish political organisation:

“Accusations of antisemitism are currently being weaponised to attack the Jeremy Corbyn-led Labour party with claims that Labour has a “problem” of antisemitism. This is despite Corbyn’s longstanding record of actively opposing fascism and all forms of racism, and being a firm a supporter of the rights of refugees and of human rights globally.

A very small number of such cases seem to be real instances of antisemitism. Others represent genuine criticism of Israeli policy and support for Palestinian rights, but expressed in clumsy and ambiguous language, which may unknowingly cross a line into antisemitism. Further cases are simply forthright expressions of support for Palestinian rights, which condemn Israeli government policy and aspects of Zionist ideology, and have nothing whatsoever to do with antisemitism.

The accusations do not refer to antisemitic actions but usually to comments, often made on social media, long before Jeremy Corbyn won the Labour leadership. Those making the charges now, did not see fit to bring them up at the time, under previous Labour leaders, but are using them now, just before mayoral and local elections, when they believe they can inflict most damage on the Labour Party led by Jeremy Corbyn.

The attack is coming from four main sources, who share agendas: to undermine Jeremy Corbyn as leader of Labour; to defend Israeli government policy from attack, however unjust, racist and harmful towards the Palestinian people; and to discredit those who make legitimate criticisms of Israeli policy or Zionism as a political ideology. As anti-racist and anti-fascist Jews who are also campaigning for peace with justice between Israelis and Palestinians, we entirely reject these cynical agendas that are being expressed by:

• The Conservative Party

• Conservative-supporting media in Britain and pro-Zionist Israeli media sources

• Right-wing and pro-Zionist elements claiming to speak on behalf of the Jewish community

• Opponents of Jeremy Corbyn within the Labour party.

The Jewish Socialists’ Group recognises that ordinary Jewish people are rightly concerned and fearful about instances of antisemitism. We share their concerns and a have a proud and consistent record of challenging and campaigning against antisemitism. But we will not support those making false accusations for cynical political motives, including the Conservative Party, who are running a racist campaign against Sadiq Khan, and whose leader David Cameron has referred to desperate refugees, as “a swarm” and “a bunch of migrants”. The Conservative Party demonstrated their contempt for Lord Dubs, a Jewish refugee from Nazism, when they voted down en masse an amendment a few days ago to allow 3,000 child refugees into Britain while Labour, led by Jeremy Corbyn, gave total support to Lord Dubs and his amendment.

The Jewish Socialists’ Group sees the current fearmongering about antisemitism in the Labour Party for what it is – a conscious and concerted effort by right-wing political forces to undermine the growing support among Jews and non-Jews alike for the Labour Party leadership of Jeremy Corbyn, and a measure of the desperation of his opponents.

We stand against antisemitism, against racism and fascism and in support of refugees. We stand for free speech and open debate on Israel, Palestine and Zionism.”

http://www.jewishsocialist.org.uk/news/item/statement-on-labours-problem-with-antisemitism-from-the-jewish-socialists-g

It’s quite eye-opening and not at all surprising that the labour right would rather smear their own party with the spectre of anti-semitism just before an election rather than attack the tories. Ken Livingstone a racist? Anti-semite? Hitler Apologist? FFS I’ve never heard such ridiculous rubbish. It seems to me his only crime is not knowing when to keep his mouth shut.

KKK big supporters of #BlackLivesMatter says Ken