I’m confused as to how Ken Livingston is an anti-Semite.

Is my definition of anti-semitic / racism wrong (words/actions which devalue / mistreat a group based on their race /religion)?

I don’t understand how his comments about Hitler supporting Zionism can be construed as anti semitic. They may be right or wrong and can be argued / discussed using the facts available (by people far more knowledgeable than me about 1930’s Europe) but how is saying what he said construed as anti-semitic?

Never, never criticize Muslims; only, only Christians. And Jews a little bit.

Alan Partidge

A Jew will disagree on principle with anything you say, no matter how right you may be. I say that from long experience with a Jewish colleague and some encounters with some of the Orthodox Jews in Manchester, who my colleague calls the “black-hatters”.

“I’m confused as to how Ken Livingston is an anti-Semite.”

I have no idea if he’s an anti-Semite, but I’m pretty sure what he said wasn’t anti-Semetic, and I’m not aware of anyone explaining why they think it was.

outofbreath – Member
“I’m confused as to how Ken Livingston is an anti-Semite.”

I have no idea if he’s an anti-Semite, but I’m pretty sure what he said wasn’t anti-Semetic, and I’m not aware of anyone explaining why they think it was.

Excellent explanation by David Baddiel here: –

I normally, as you know, post stuff on Twitter. But Twitter doesn’t give enough space for this. So. Ken. Here is the…

Posted by David Baddiel on Thursday, April 6, 2017

I too am struggling with this.

Saying Hitler was a zionist may well be inaccurate. Are you a zionist if you say “all you jews go live somewhere else- Yes, Israel – works for me”? That doesn’t sound like a zionist to me, that sounds like an anti-semite. So is Livingstone considered anti-semitic because he is being glib with the facts?

Good editorial write up in the Guardian as well.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/apr/05/the-guardian-view-on-labour-and-ken-livingstone-wrong-decision-terrible-message

“A Jew will disagree on principle with anything you say, no matter how right you may be.“

I’ve had similar experiences with Turkish people. Is everyone a racist ?

“Excellent explanation”

It’s not though, is it. a) It misquotes by using a misleading definition of ‘supports’ and b) ‘tone’. Please.

Because Mr Baddiel puts it all so well:
(apologies there’s an f-bomb or two in there. But they’re the good, leftie kind)

I have been swayed me on this issue, I started off thinking Livingston had nothing to answer for. I still don’t believe that Livingston is anti-Semite, but he did say something foolish and was certainly less informed about a point in history than he thought.

a Jew will disagree on principle with anything you say, no matter how right you may be.

that goes for about two thirds of STW too

“Good editorial write up in the Guardian as well.”

Once again it doesn’t say why it’s racist.

I started off thinking Livingston had nothing to answer for. I still don’t believe that Livingston is anti-Semite, but he did say something foolish and was certainly less informed about a point in history than he thought.

I think the other telling point is Ken’s subsequent stance. He was quick to apologise to mental health groups last year, and Peter Tatchell and certain moderate Islamic groups before that, when he caused offence.

But when he offends Jewish people (for the nth time)? They can shove it, and stop being such oversensitive little babies. This difference in attitude strongly infers anti-Semitism, even if not explicit, I think.

The transcript of what KL said is:

“Let’s remember when Hitler won his election in 1932, his policy then was that Jews should be moved to Israel. He was supporting Zionism – this before he went mad and ended up killing six million Jews.“

So he didn’t say Hitler was a Zionist just that he supported Zionism. This was part of The Haavara Agreement. Zionism as a political movement was for the establishment and self-determination of a Jewish state, Hitler wasn’t about that. It was most likely political expediency to give the Nazis time to come up with their abomination of a “final solution”.

I think essentially Hitler was Zionist in the sense that he wanted the Jews out of Germany – encouraging them to leave for Israel with ‘some’ of their belongings was one method. When that wasn’t effective enough he just took to killing them instead. To call him a Zionist is at best glib and at worst grossly misleading.

With Ken is in fact an anti-semite or not… I couldn’t say for sure but if he had any sense he would simply apologise and move on.

“So he didn’t say Hitler was a Zionist just that he supported Zionism.”

Yup, supported Zionism as an unintentional by-product. Not support in the sense of approved of. But even if he’d said Hitler actually approved of Zionism, that’s hardly anti-Semitism.

“A Jew will disagree on principle with anything you say, no matter how right you may be.”

I’ve had similar experiences with Turkish people. Is everyone a racist ?
In my experience, everyone is racist, sexists, ageist and any other kind of “ist” you can think of or make up.
Humans’ brains are dominated by what they see, therefore they make assumptions based on their observations. So if you see a West Indian, female pensioner, you will automatically register all those details and make a judgement of that person based on your experiences. The problems occur when people make the wrong judgement.

His views are at least arguable, but why couldn’t he keep his trap shut instead of throwing more petrol on the fire?

“His views are at least arguable, but why couldn’t he keep his trap shut instead of throwing more petrol on the fire?”

A cynic might say because then he wouldn’t get any publicity.

My issue with it is that he’s having “anti-Semite” screamed at him because he dares to criticise Israel. It is Israel’s first and best weapon in dealing with criticism in the West and the pro-Israeli elements within the Labour Party are persecuting him for it.

He might as well be banned from the Labour party under anti-automobile rules for stating the Nazi party thought the motorway was a good idea.

Hitler was Zionist in the sense that he wanted the Jews out of Germany

or in other words, not Zionist 🙄

That’s like saying Im a lesbian because I like getting giggidty with women.

“That’s like saying Im a lesbian because I like getting giggidty with women.”

Assuming you are a terrible shag, you could be (unintentionally) supporting Lesbianism by getting giggidty with women. Which is pretty much what KL said.

or in other words, not Zionist

Yes, that was rather my point – apologies if it wasn’t clear enough.

He was a Zionist in the same way that a murderer is an ‘advocate of euthanasia’

ie not.

No, Hitler supported Zionism, in the same way that a murderer supports Coffin makers.

why couldn’t he keep his trap shut instead of throwing more petrol on the fire?

http://howlongsincekenlivingstonementionedhitler.com

Note – Only records days, so may be out of date already.

Sorry Gavin. I mis-lesbianed

livingston is a dick, the sooner hes out of the picture the better

one wonders how much this is playing into israels hands too

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jan/07/israeli-diplomat-shai-masot-caught-on-camera-plotting-to-take-down-uk-mps

Why Has Israeli Spy Shai Masot Not Been Expelled?

Really??

‘globalti – Member
A Jew will disagree on principle with anything you say, no matter how right you may be.’

+1 for Livingstone being a dick rather than an anti-semite, based on his public pronouncements anyway.

He’s like an internet clever dick who’s not half as clever as he thinks. We all know the type, eh?

I think Baddiel is over-reaching a bit there, but he’s right to highlight Ken’s lack of empathy and dismissive tone as the real problem.

Disappointed that the thread title isn’t ‘Ken! Livingston!’ 🙂

I’m agreeing with chapaking – having heard the report I wasn’t sure how those comments – on their own – were anti-Semitic. But I didn’t fancy starting a thread on it, can never tell which set of pitch fork wielding internet heroes will be on here…

A plus one from me for P-Jay. Being anti-Zionist is not anti-Semitic, despite the state of Israel’s PR people trying to equate the two. (After all the Palestinian Arabs are also Semites).

OP I sent you a personal message.

Ken Livingstone has a lot of form on this issue, that provides important and relevant context. On the midst of Naz Shah’s MP suspension from Labour he waded in suggesting Hitler supported Zionism. This is deeply offensive to many Jews. To suggest that the most evil leader of our time who directly ensured the murder of 6 millions Jews somehow supported the creation of a Jewish state was designed to offend most deeply Jews, it was a targetted remark. It sought to delegitimise the right of Jews to a state of their own. The author of the book he quoted is a known Holocaust denier.

this baddiel’s article is great till he decides to conflate zionism and Jew as interchangeable terms

they are not and one can dislike zionism without disliking jews in much the same way one can dislike the ISIS caliphate and not hate Muslims
I also think its BS to say the left dont object to anti semitism

Being anti-Zionist is not anti-Semitic

Yes it is. Look at the definitions. We don’t suggest that Christians are not entiled to a Christian Stats, eg Italy, Spain or Ireland. We don’t suggest that Muslims have no right to chose to run Saudi Arabia under Sharira Law.

and we dont suggest jews do not have a right to a state we simply criticise what the state does in the same way I criticise saudi for what ot does

Though the former is apparently racist against jews and the later legitimate concerns about abuses

Its tiresome to get sidetracked by folk doing this BS as its easier to attack as racist than defend ISrael’s actions

New settlements announced again for example

Being anti-Zionist is not anti-Semitic

Yes it is.

I think this is the root of the problem. Different people have slightly different beliefs / understandings / definitions of Semitism and Zionism and where your personal definitions are determines whether you think Ken was being anti-semitic or not.

this baddiel’s article is great till he decides to conflate zionism and Jew as interchangeable terms

they are not and one can dislike zionism without disliking jews in much the same way one can dislike the ISIS caliphate and not hate Muslims

However the issue is that many people do deliberately use them interchangeably in order to mean the other

To use your own example, it would be like BNP claiming that their opposition to fundementalist Islamic preachers is entirely unrelated to skin colour.

Yes it is. Look at the definitions. We don’t suggest that Christians are not entiled to a Christian Stats, eg Italy, Spain or Ireland. We don’t suggest that Muslims have no right to chose to run Saudi Arabia under Sharira Law.

Are you saying that if I think the forced Palestinian exodus to make way for the Israeli state was a pretty sucky state of affairs for the Palestinians I’m anti-semitic as well as anti-zionist?