One of the compelling bits of evidence to me is how tightly clustered the measured haematocrit levels are (i.e. nothing like a normal bell curve). The cut-off point was set at a level determined to be un-natural – so I agree with thisisnotaspoon, seems highly odd to see all these values clustered just below the legal cutoff.

would he have won that many tours without EPO

I'll caveat this question by saying I don't know a great deal about road cycling but from what I've read one of the reasons for doping accusations directed at Lance stem from the number of TDFs he won and the disbelief that anyone who didn't dope couldn't have achieved that.

Now, Miguel Indurain won 5 TDFs on the trot but he never seems to create the same level of hysteria re. doping and as far as I know he never tested positive but correct me if I'm wrong.

So why the Lance hating when someone like Indurain seems to escape such criticism?

'Abnormal' blood values is rocky ground IMO. If you're looking at why one cyclist is better than another why wouldn't it be that cyclist A's haemocrit dosn't do what everyone elses haemocrit dows over a 3 week stage race and gradually reduces?

Unless you unequivocally find proof of recombinant or synthetic EPO in a sample, you shouldn't go wrecking lives and careers on pseudoscience. Saying it looks dodgy is different to saying it is physiologically impossible, to saying it is a proven fact that he has doped.

That book by Kimmage. I had the impression that alot of people in there needed to get a life. Especially the cheats who had been caught and become holy than thou/pursuing Lance as though they were clean and he was the one who had been doping.

Pro athlete takes drugs shocker! When I was at uni performance drugs were more common than recreational drugs.

Have a mooch around the (numerous) drug related forums and you'll find amateur athletes of all kinds discussing what drugs they use and how to avoid detection.

alwyn – Member
I'm not, but do love the French life style. If I have money when I retire then I'm off to the Pyrenees. The main problem is the way they test for epo. I am not a sports scientist so don't know a better way.
It would be nice for to tour to return to the days of LeMond and Hinault. Don't get me wrong this year’s tour was amazing and I'm sure next year will be too. But it would nice to have a tour that’s about the cycling.

And you think Lemond and Hinault were clean? You're living in a dream world. Presumably you think Tommy Simpson died of dehydration, that Virenque was a nice boy, and that Ullrich only ate bratwurst. The pros in the peleton have been doping in one form or an other since the Tour started. Maybe, just maybe, they are easing off now. But, there could be yet another "new" drug that the testers haven't heard about. Cynicism will always be present, because cheats will also always be around.

Who said 'you dont win Tours on water alone'?

How many people would be complaining if the tour was shorter, slower and less exciting?

If Armstrong was taking EPO he was only levelling the playing field as I am sure that there are very few pros that are drug free. How hard must it be to ride the distances they do, at the speeds they do, for the number of days they do and be agressive in the mountains, without some chemical assistance.

Bloody hell we live in a really cynical world don't we. I must be the most naive person in the world, but I'll continue to admire a guy who came back from being ready to kick to bucket to fairly beating everyone in his way, until its PROPERLY CONFIRMED OTHERWISE. Us brits really don't like people who are winners do we! I think his story is bloody inspirational myself. And its in now way zenophobic to say the French don't like him basically a. because he's american and b. they don't like it when someone dominates the race they "own"

I can see how it would be too much of a bombshell if he was proven to be a cheat and therefore the authorities don't want it to be true. But I'll keep admiring him until someone can convince me otherwise.

agree about the drugs at university comments

one of my friends used to organise group buys of steroids and god knows what else for the guys that used the uni gym
they werent competeing in anything just wanted to look good and build more muscle

ok im gonna say something blasphemous

steve pete, could he have would he have?

i mean he must have to fight extra hard being what 10 years older than a lot of his competitors and bounced back stronger than ever from some nasty injuries etc

The 50% threshold probably created more dopers than it stopped. Now the doctors had something to aim for. Give people epo, just make sure they stay under 50%. Luckily when people are riding around France really fast their haemocrit levels drop. Wasn't Millar's doctor of the opinion that it should be perfectly legal to boost the riders epo to stop them damaging themselves?

Re the old "French hating Armstrong" chestnut – he got the biggest cheer of the day from the French in the time trial in Annecy this year, because he acted like a champion and a team player through the tour, and takes his responsibility to represent cycling seriously, unlike Contador.

So the French now seen that, by comparison with a selfish little idiot like Contador who only rides for himself and who is probably still doping (remember he was the only one who could stay with Rasmussen), Armstrong is actually pretty good for their sport.

Agree with chrisb46, Lance seemed pretty popular in France this year.

Good to see the Brits were first to use doping in sport and cycling.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_performance-enhancing_drugs_in_sport

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_cycling

If LA did take performance enhancing drugs then he has made himself a millionaire from cheating. He is aiming at a high profile career in politics, again perhaps based on a lie. He has a lot to lose if any of these allegations were true.

BUT….if that article was not the truth why would Armstrong not have pursued it and forced the authors to back down? He's done that plenty of times before.

Aye, a mekong-looking fecker pops up for his slice of fame with an 'innocent looking report' when really he knows hes out to stir and help raise his own profile.

Why doesnt Lance fight down all comers? I dont know, maybe hes focusing on training as training now is soo much harder the older you get?

I dont know. Love people on here. Do you hate American's or just a fellow male of similar age to you who actually did achieved something rather than be a biking-god in your own head?

Thing is, his denials smack so much of Clintons "I did not have sex with that woman" (while carefully thinking of someone else).

Like politicians, no-one in the industry dishes dirt or seems willing to speak truthfully – until they're out of it.

I was a fan of a fellow male my own age called Indurain but it wasn't till a few years ago that I realised why he was so good. I'm still a fan of Pantani, for all his faults. Neither of them ever tested positive (arguably) but neither of them has millions of fans protesting their innocence. Trouble with Armstrong is that he has built an empire on his reputation. I don't hate him but I think he should come clean or shut up. I can see why the former might be a bit difficult though.