I think that the Vicks Nasal Spray that Alan Baxter took was from an American pharmacy that had a different ingredient to the British version.

from Wiki
A few days after his return home, Alain discovered that he had failed a drug test. His sample contained a trace amount of levomethamphetamine, an levorotary isomer of the banned stimulant methamphetamine. Although levMethamphetamine had no significant stimulant properties, he was sanctioned by the IOC. Following an unsuccessful appeal, Baxter was disqualified and told to return his medal. The Alpine bronze was then awarded to Austrian Benjamin Raich. Baxter later proved the source of levMethamphetamine was from a Vicks inhaler that he had used in the United States. He had been unaware that the contents were different from those found in the UK version. The International Ski Federation accepted his explanation and banned him for the minimum of 3 months.
****

The curious thing about the JTL case is that he seemed legit before. Apparently even Garmin did a full work-up on him and would have signed him had he not gone to Sky.

But on the face of it “rider is crap for years, then when already fairly old suddely starts winning while on a Continental level team so not subject to bio-passport tests, signs to team with better governance and is crap” screams doping.

In some ways this should give us confidence in the system. Firstly that he has been caught is good since it shows the system does catch people. But also it gives us confidence that the peleton is cleaner. If a previously crap rider can get such a huge gain from doping and then win a relatively high level race then hopefully this highlights that everyone else isn’t doping.

Previoulsy you had to dope to keep up, cyclisme deux vitesse, now you can dope to win but you are more likely to get caught.

gary – Member

And if you were asked what you had been doing 12 months ago that might have caused odd blood values, what would you say?

I know what you are getting at here but if I was asked that question I’d probably check Strava, see where I was riding, who with and how much etc. I’m sure a professional athlete might have a rather more sophisticated diary to look back at?

mudshark – Member

Not sure all elite athletes aren’t stupid – I’ve seen football.

Years ago I remember reading something along the lines of ‘racing cyclists don’t need anything more than good legs so don’t expect them to be clever’. I guess intelligence is spread through the peloton in the same way as the general population?

Looks like Tiernan Locke Ebayed his kit earlier in the year.

You can get EPO on the cheap off ebay now? Cool! 🙂

He’d fit right in at Astana or Tinkoff-Saxo.

I’m not so sure – it appears he’s not good enough without doping, and he’s not very good at doping, so that sort of leaves him back in the 3rd tier continental teams if any of those will now touch him. 😕

I’m not so sure – it appears he’s not good enough without doping, and he’s not very good at doping, so that sort of leaves him back in the 3rd tier continental teams if any of those will now touch him.

I’m sure Vino or Riis would be able to sort him out 🙂

Not only that, but the drug which was found in his system (which is exactly what was in the inhaler) has no performance enhancing properties – it’s simply banned along with something very similar which does.

I’m far from an apologist for druggies, but it’s quite clear that in Baxter’s case it was a genuine mistake of the sort even somebody very intelligent could make. An explanation accepted by the powers that be – he was only sanctioned because of the rule of strict liability.

I’m far from being an Olympic athlete, but I know people who are (I’ve raced in a team with an Olympic silver medallist 8) ) and have competed at events where drug testing has been carried out, so have as good a perspective on this as anybody else on this thread I think.

aracer – Member
I’m far from being an Olympic athlete, but I know people who are (I’ve raced in a team with an Olympic silver medallist ) and have competed at events where drug testing has been carried out, so have as good a perspective on this as anybody else on this thread I think.

Just for balance, I’ve ridden with Commonwealth games athletes, raced against TdF stage winners (and an overall GC winner, thinking about it 8) ) and have ridden plenty of events where drug testing has been carried out.

I know nothing about doping other than what I read in mags or the internet.

😆

I really should check whether my nose spray will get me banned from 24/12 next week… 😉

And if you were asked what you had been doing 12 months ago that might have caused odd blood values, what would you say?

I know what you are getting at here but if I was asked that question I’d probably check Strava, see where I was riding, who with and how much etc. I’m sure a professional athlete might have a rather more sophisticated diary to look back at?
[/quote]

Sure, and I guess part of my point was that while you would expect a pretty thorough training diary, this surely ups the ante. Just what do you record in that diary in case you need to explain some test results you don’t even understand, when you don’t necessarily know what analysis is to be performed on your passport results, and the analysis performed in 12 months time might be different to the current protocol.

I’m really not trying to be any kind of apologist for anyone, but its a fairly daunting situation. I wonder how many big teams run their own parallel passport (c.f. Sky and Henao) to ensure they have some form of defence. I think some teams toned down their independent testing as the passport system ramped up.

We won’t hear much from him again – so different to where the Yates brothers are going.

I think we are quite naive in the UK to think everyone is whiter than white and as soon as something bad happens you are out of the game. Reality is that all teams are are the very edge of what is ethical and legal at the best, or just better at the same old cheating at worst.

He’d fit right in at Astana or Tinkoff-Saxo.

Yep! Or any other Pro-Tour team if he can get his performances back. I’m not convinced he is really Pro-Tour material but at the same time he didn’t really get a chance to show himself as it seems SKY pulled him quite early. Riis, Vino, Vaughters… all the ex dopers who now manage teams would help him do what he needs to do but not be stupid enough to be caught 😉

In some ways this should give us confidence in the system. Firstly that he has been caught is good since it shows the system does catch people. But also it gives us confidence that the peleton is cleaner.

Partially, but I still think it is only the greedy and stupid that are getting caught. LA and Ricco sit on the greedy end of the spectrum whilst JTL was probably too inexperienced with this sort of thing to do it properly. There was an excellent article recently (The Secret Pro?) which basically said that the riders and teams know what the parameters of the biological passport are so dope up to the limits but no further. I do think the peleton is cleaner but not a single top level guy is racing on just bread and water

all teams are are the very edge of what is ethical and legal at the best

“Most”, I wouldn’t agree “all”. I think that at least one or two are trying very hard to do what is right regardless of what they’re actually allowed to get away with.

A bit harsh to put Vaughters in the same league as Riis and Vino.

Vaughters, repentant ex-doper, sets up a team with a clean ethos, very progressive attitude. Riis and Vino, unrepentant ex-dopers, with evidence to suggest that they’ve run doping programs within the teams they’ve managed and encouraged their riders to dope.

“Most”, I wouldn’t agree “all”. I think that at least one or two are trying very hard to do what is right regardless of what they’re actually allowed to get away with.

And I’d put Vaughters down as one of these ^^^.

I have Vaughters down as someone who knows how to say the right thing but does very little in reality to put his words in to action. He should be in politics with the amount of spin he can put on anything. True though that at least he gives the impression of repenting unlike Vino/ Riss/ etc.

The only team trying to really press forwards with zero doping is SKY but even then they lost a fair chunk of the riders and back room staff who helped Wiggins to yellow when the policy became enforced more strongly…. still got their first TDF GC with the help of a lot of people with a questionable past. I do feel for them because they can’t really win either way with this approach and will also be under more scrutiny than the teams who give an air of cleanliness but crack on the same as usual under the surface (e.g. Vaughters)

Vaughters, repentant ex-doper, sets up a team with a clean ethos, very progressive attitude.

Which includes having his riders only tell the truth outside the team when they’re caught and even then to use a “I did it, I’m sorry to disappoint the fans” cut and paste press release. I don’t necessarily agree with waiting until the riders are pointed at by someone else but at least then they could be totally honest and give all the info out. Without that it still feels a bit like omerta-light.

Riis and Vino both need to go (along with Vino’s DS, Dmitry Fofonov, Riis’ DS Steven de Jongh and I imagine others). The UCI can just decline to grant their teams a new license if they can’t legislate their way out of it.

As an aside, was Vino ever asked to account for the payments to Ferrari or did that one slip under the radar?

I do think the peleton is cleaner but not a single top level guy is racing on just bread and water

Statements like this highlight how the retroic around doping in sport is totally out of kilter with reality.

Nobody will be on bread and water because you don’t have to be, infact you’d be a mug if you were since you are giving an unnecessary advantage to your oponents. Afterall profesional sport is just that, profesional, a job and people can do what ever it takes to suceed within the rules.

And for cycling the rules are the WADA code. Take the TUE debate, Chris Froome has been pilloried for using a TUE and going on to win the Tour of Romandie. But he did everything within the WADA code, he didn’t break a single rule. But Alas everyone cries, we want our winners to be whiter than white. But what if it was the final week of the tour and he gets a bronchial infection? Should he pull out and lose the tour or get a TUE within the rules. The answer is obvious. it’s his job afterall.

The romantic ideas of fair play and sport for sports sake are not compatable with profesionalism and it is naive to expect it.

Football and feigning/exagerating injury is another example. There is always huge polemics on here about footballers rolling on the floor at the slightest tap while a cyclist will ride for 18km on a broken leg. But to suggest this is eveidence for footballers being a bunch of jessies is again naive in the extreem. A footballer will act like this as it’s not against the rules and it gives them a competitive advantage, there oponent is more likely to be sent of and there is no sanction for them other than having to leave the pitch for 20s.

Applying standards other than the official rules of the sport is just setting yourself up for dissapointment. Becuase where do you draw your own line? Pan y agua? What about a coffee? Caffine is a stimulant afterall. Coffee’s OK then so what about 4 espressos in your finishing bottle to get a hit of stimulants in the last 20km? Is that OK? Yep, it’s just coffee. Ok so how about that caffine but in a suppliment? Is that OK? It’s all just shades of grey until you get to the only difinative line, the WADA code. So to praise Taylor Phinney for his “nothing artifical” while critisising Sky for using a TUE is flawed.

lemonysam – Member

“Oof, shame. Weird there’s not been more about exactly what it was he’s supposed to have done/taken.”

Is this not part of the new UCI approach to announcing these things – see also the Menchov controversy?

I don’t think it’s weird to publish it but not promote it. Falls in line with other sports. Not commenting on whether that’s a good thing or not…

In 2013 Rugby Union had a higher % of positive tests than cycling and athletics. Did you see that widely reported?

Statements like this highlight how the retroic around doping in sport is totally out of kilter with reality.

Nobody will be on bread and water because you don’t have to be, infact you’d be a mug if you were since you are giving an unnecessary advantage to your oponents. Afterall profesional sport is just that, profesional, a job and people can do what ever it takes to suceed within the rules.

I completely agree that all teams live in the realm of grey. No top level pro is whiter than white (apart from maybe Thor who is quoted as saying he does race on just bread and water 🙄 )… anyway…

Afterall profesional sport is just that, profesional, a job and people can do what ever it takes to suceed within the rules.

It’s all just shades of grey until you get to the only difinative line, the WADA code.

Completely agree that there are many shades of grey being routinely exploited but there are moral and ethical codes as well as legal codes to follow much like wider society.

Caffeine is a pretty inoffensive example for your shades of grey that most people won’t take exception to. How about Kittel’s particular blood manipulation and transfusions? Not banned to the letter of the WADA code at the time but certainly well over a moral and health line which the WADA code has since been updated to reflect. He would have known completely that this is at the blackest spectrum of grey which says something for the morals of some individuals… which isn’t something I would personally wish to aspire to in any walk of life. Hey ho.

In 2013 Rugby Union had a higher % of positive tests than cycling and athletics. Did you see that widely reported?

No. Do you have a source? Pretty amazing since they have virtually no testing in rugby and most of the positives (at least those reported) are usually for non performance enhancing stuff like Bath Rugby/ cocaine

In 2013 Rugby Union had a higher % of positive tests than cycling and athletics. Did you see that widely reported?

No. Do you have a source? Pretty amazing since they have virtually no testing in rugby and most of the positives (at least those reported) are usually for non performance enhancing stuff like Bath Rugby/ cocaine [/quote]

LMGTFY : http://www.espn.co.uk/scrum/rugby/story/233993.html

I think the headline in the ESPN article is very misleading. Googling I came up with

Today the Rugby Football Union announced the testing statistics for 2012-13 and proudly reported no positives for performance enhancing drugs at an elite level. A good thing surely? What about the positive illicit drug tests?

and

Of a total of 1,542 tests (103 blood tests) conducted in 2012, in and out of competition across all sections of the international game, there were 21 positives. In 2011, there were more than 6,000 tests, including domestic competitions, with 53 violations. Rugby union began blood testing in 2007, the focus of the tests being to target HGH. In 2011 307 tests were conducted in the six months leading into the rugby World Cup. A further 52 were conducted during the tournament.

I don’t think Rugby is especially hiding or not reporting anything, more that testing is pretty woeful (6000 samples across the entire Rugby playing world of which only a small proportion blood testing) and most players are getting caught for non-performance enhancing stuff (21 positives in 2012-13 but none of these performancing enhacing in the elite game)… so there isn’t much to report

It’s ok, he wasn’t doping, just got really pissed. Three days before his first major international race. And then didn’t drink anything for a day 🙄

http://velonews.competitor.com/2014/08/news/tiernan-lockes-two-year-doping-ban-upheld_341399

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/jonathan-tiernan-locke-blamed-biological-passport-anomaly-binge-drinking-session-133330

Saw interesting comment re: JTL this morning at the link below too, good timing! Offered up purely for completeness, not out of any claim for the quality of the anonymous source 🙂

http://cyclingtips.com.au/2014/08/the-secret-pro-transfer-season/

So lets just say he had of kept doping, would he have got caught (assuming no traces of drugs were found in urine test)? His bloody values would have stayed the same and the bio passport wouldn’t have found any anomalies?

that reminds me of Dennis Mitchell’s excuse

Mitchell appealed to the US Track and Field doping panel, claiming that the only reason his testosterone levels were high was because, the night before the test, he had drunk six bottles of beer, and had sex with his wife four times. He told the panel, ‘It was the lady’s birthday; she deserved a treat.’

No, that’s what the passport does – it looks for those anomalies that signify blood doping – eg spikes in the ages of blood cells amongst other things. Trouble is there is no fixed definition of what is doping, hence the need for agreement from a panel that it is abnormal.

Trouble with this is that he as been done for not being able to prove himself innocent. Is like being found guilty for a burglary because you can’t prove that you didn’t do it. Charley Wega… can’t spell it and can’t asred to find the book.. had something similar. Not saying he is innocent but also I am somewhat amused by all the “knowledgeable” comments on the web. Only he knows if he did it and he says he didn’t.

I am somewhat amused by all the “knowledgeable” comments on the web

What, like this one?

Trouble with this is that he as been done for not being able to prove himself innocent. Is like being found guilty for a burglary because you can’t prove that you didn’t do it.

Yeah but if he’d kept micro dosing he wouldn’t have any spikes, his baseline would remain the same ‘cos he’d always been doping while on the bio passport or is it really that super subtle?

From what I understand you can’t microdose all the time or you run the risk of testing positive for the EPO itself (rather than the effects of it which is what the passport identifies).

So lets just say he had of kept doping, would he have got caught (assuming no traces of drugs were found in urine test)? His bloody values would have stayed the same and the bio passport wouldn’t have found any anomalies?

If he’d doped for his entire blood passport then it would have been harder to find but then the indicators of a normal rider (like the number of red blood cells dropping during a stage race) wouldn’t have been present so he’d have been under suspicion then. Likewise he may well have been popped actually with the drugs in his system. I think it’s a pretty solid result for the passport.

Does this mean that being hungover is no longer a valid excuse for a poor day on the bike ?

The problem was that he didn’t have a poor day on the bike 🙂 If he had, his story would have been a little more plausible..

TBH, you know how it is. You’re selected to ride for Great Britain at the worlds and you get smashed. Then you don’t let a drop of fluids pass your lips for 36 hours and train during the same period. Anyone would make that mistake. 🙄

Okay, it’s not Tyler Hamilton’s amazing hidden, interior twin sibling but as an excuse it’s pretty silly.

Cheers for the answers.

Yes, being, ‘allegedly’ hungover but yet still capable of mixing it with the others at the top level is one hell of a stunt to pull. Even the mighty Wiggo couldn’t do that for Cav…

Anyway, reading between the lines. Dehydration was cited by the defence as an explanation for the anomalous readings.
If being dehydrated reduces blood plasma, then by unit volume, one might see an increased presence of other blood constituents, such as an increased level of red blood cells in the sample.
Of course, in the case of sport, theres another reason for an increase in the number of red blood cells in a sample…
My guess is adding blood or EPO.

Once at sky, JTL stops ‘using’ for fear of being detected and compensates with additional training volume which inturn, brings on the symptoms of chronic fatigue that we see when he is at Sky.
**Is not a doctor**

Saw interesting comment re: JTL this morning at the link below too, good timing! Offered up purely for completeness, not out of any claim for the quality of the anonymous source

http://cyclingtips.com.au/2014/08/the-secret-pro-transfer-season/

There must be enough clues in these articles for the authors identity to be revealed. Or would that ruin the fun ?

I suspect that the author would deliberately put some misinformation in there unless he’s stupid – eg claiming he’s looking for a contract when he’s signed up for next year already and so on. Probably mixing up some of his own stories with those that he hears.

And that’s assuming he actually is a pro rider, not just someone on the race scene (eg coach, etc) that knows the right sort of information.

If being dehydrated reduces blood plasma, then by unit volume, one might see an increased presence of other blood constituents

Upper limits in urine are adjusted to account for possible effects of dehydration after racing.

http://road.cc/content/news/128553-jonathan-tiernan-locke-says-ukad-dismissed-sample-would-have-cleared-him

A good follow up that further makes the case for him being as guilty as he’s been found by UKAD. Raises some important questions about a linked up anti-doping strategy between the various agencies and the teams. Garmin seem to have a well thought out process that seems effective while other teams (including Sky it seems) are taking more of a risk (to their own reputations) with their methods.

http://cyclingtips.com.au/2014/09/biological-passport-what-can-teams-learn-from-the-tiernan-locke-case/

Read that earlier, good article.