You can be a consultant and an employee. As in, he is looking to be employed by a firm of consultants to be hired out to other people.

Hang on you’re a consultant, not an employee?

He’s an employee who does consulting…

Or a consultant who does employing….

Your confused of Cambridge.

Anyway, as soon as I’d heard the word India, I’d run a mile. I’ve never hated working with people as much as I have with Indian MNOs.

I’m not surprised if this is their first time recruiting experienced staff in UK/Europe, probably up to now it is just putting Indians in and IME (I’ve worked with all the big outsources) they’ll put up with 5h1t as it’s still better than been at home.

But, you must agree everything up front – also check holiday as I hadn’t realised that the minimum is now 28 days (including BH’s), until discussing it with a colleague last week.

https://www.gov.uk/holiday-entitlement-rights/entitlement

Yes I’ve been told 20 days hols, agent says that’s becoming normal for IT – really?! Always had 25 but know some who get 23.

I had 20 days in my first job in the late 90s. Always 25 since then with BH on top.

😆 at 20 days “becoming normal for IT”. Our minimum went up to 23 last year (plus BH – goes up with more service) because it was woefully uncompetitive.

So, no expenses, and 20 days holiday allowance.

Sounds like a dream job, can I have the recruiters number?

So, no expenses, and 20 days holiday allowance and Indian bosses

I’d run a mile…

Salary is pretty good though – and role interesting. Obviously wouldn’t take without the expenses issue resolved to my liking.

For those who missed it first time…

the minimum is now 28 days (including BH’s)

https://www.gov.uk/holiday-entitlement-rights/entitlement

If you are having these sort of misunderstandings and poor communication with them now and they are in sales mode, then I would look elsewhere.

OP, so IMO this is a company focused on cost control, trying to get away with the absolute minimum, lowest possible expenses, low holidays etc. I am sure the management are reading about how Europe is not doing well (so trying to bargain you down) plus with all the Indian employees this is about cost savings. Reading between the lines it also seems they want you and you are quite interested in the job. My 2p would be to ask for

Travel expenses inc hotel with a daily food allowance (or a higher salary to compensate, eating out often is expensive and not that healthy generally)
25 days holiday (this will sound like huge amount to an American not familiar with Europe FYI)
Ability to work from home 4 days a month, eg every Friday (that saves them money on travel and saves wear and tear on you)

It can only be a regret if I take it in place of something that could have been better so keeping my options open for now.

Got this back:

I have spoken to the business and we will go ahead with the reimbursement of Travel/Accommodation on actuals with the receipts of bills .

We had a phone call and HR person is expecting train receipts – I explained that it’ll be cheaper and quicker by car, they don’t seem able to deal with that.

I’m also told that they have a number of people who are joining on the same grade as me joinin on lower salaries and accepted that there are no expenses. It will be interesting to see what these people are like if I do join – best keep quiet my better deal!

“I’m also told that they have a number of people who are joining on the same grade as me joinin on lower salaries and accepted that there are no expenses. It will be interesting to see what these people are like if I do join”

id expect – desperate for work.

“I’m also told that they have a number of people who are joining on the same grade as me joinin on lower salaries and accepted that there are no expenses.

They’ll be long gone before summer 😀

I’m also told that they have a number of people who are joining on the same grade as me joinin on lower salaries and accepted that there are no expenses

It’s getting better by the minute. You better snap their hand off.

“I’m also told that they have a number of people who are joining on the same grade as me joinin on lower salaries and accepted that there are no expenses. It will be interesting to see what these people are like if I do join”

Default response to that : “That’s nice”

It will be interesting to see what these people are like if these people actually exist if I do join

It will be interesting to see what these people are like where these people pitch their tents when away from home on client sites

I am in the fortunate position of knowing a contractor on the project, he was positive about the when I asked him about the company/project before, will try to have another chat. I’m hoping I get a good offer from the other job I’ve been looking at but even that isn’t ideal as it’s focusing on one functional area whereas I’d rather stay more general.

Default response to that : “That’s nice”

I would go with, “Good for them”

Mind you, they are going to think something is up when you get to book yourself into the Premier Inn, while they are sleeping on their cousin’s floor after travelling up on Megabus when you go out to a client site together.

You could go for a per diem/overnight subsistence rate

Then stay at the cheapest places possible and pocket the difference into your new bike fund 8)

Just out of interest, which Indian outsourcer is this? Its not Wipro is it?

It’s an American company who bought a large Indian one – don’t want to say but maybe you can work it out.

OK I didn’t get the other job (as I wasn’t focused enough on the area they wanted me for!) so looks like I’ll be taking this. Wish me luck…! 🙂

I’d ask to be employed as a contractor so you can claim the tax back off your expenses

For the record, you can do this as a permanent employee (i.e. claim tax relief on business/work expenses), you don’t need to be a contractor. Fill out a form, send it to HMRC, they’ll amend your PAYE code.

But, that aside, from all I’ve read on this thread I’d avoid the role like the plague. 20 days hols is far from the norm, not paying travel expenses is bobbins, and if I was ever told “we have people who would do this for less”, I’d let them.

EDIT – and having worked for three outsourcers; you are a profit generating number. The profit is the amount they can charge for you (read, how hard they can make you work) minus the amount they have to pay you. Obviously the incentive is to maximise the former and minimise the latter…

you are a profit generating number.

^^exactly this^^ We even have part numbers. 😯

Well it looks like I’m getting expenses so I’ll join then leave if it all goes wrong, salary does make up for lack of holidays.

Maybe they’ll get rid of me anyway when they decide I’m too expensive!

I would like to highlight the most pertinent post on this thread.

My experience is that if you’re having to do this sort of negotiation before even accepting a job offer when they’re trying to tempt you to work for them it’s going to be a nightmare once you’re actually employed and they don’t have to be nice any more.

Well I’d just leave.

Today’s excitement is around what travel they’ll reimburse – trains not mileage as they want receipts. Trying to explain that the train cost would be a lot more expensive and take longer for the project – Surrey to Cheltenham. Computer says no.

Walk away now.

Don’t look back.

There’s an expenses clerk at head office looking out the window and wondering how driving would be cheaper than rail travel.

Either hire you and pay your travel expenses or hire someone local to them who doesn’t need to travel. That’s how it works!

Sounds very much like Wipro to me. Thats one of the reasons why I refused to join them even though they kept on badgering me for over 18 months….

Glad that I did now though, joined another consultancy that has since been brought out by one of the big 4 but left them and am now working for an American company but entirely home based so no need to worry about expenses.

If I was the OP I would be walking away very very quickly.

Never heard of that in 8 years of perm and contract recruitment. Expenses are paid from door to door. Walk away.

Today’s excitement is around what travel they’ll reimburse – trains not mileage as they want receipts. Trying to explain that the train cost would be a lot more expensive and take longer for the project – Surrey to Cheltenham. Computer says no.

Then **** them.

If they’re too ignorant to listen to you that’s their lookout. At the risk of sounding like the apocryphal ‘selfish arse’ you don’t owe them anything. They’re paying you, screwing you on holidays, tried to screw you on expenses, presumably there are no other benefits attached so accept that you’re just going to have to play them at their own game. I can think of worse things in the world than train travel.

Presumably they don’t know anything about passenger charters either so travel time on delayed journeys can be claimed twice 😉

so looks like I’ll be taking this. Wish me luck…!

Jesus H. Christ. I was wondering why this thread was still going, but to see that?! The mind boggles.

You ask for advice, get it, ignore it, get what you deserve.

I’d normally say whats the worst that could happen, a job is better than no job but in this case there is a good chance you could end up seriously out of pocket and basically losing money on a job you may quit in 2 months.

Well I started on Monday, currently all seems fine in theory around expenses and now told I can claim 45p/mile for my car. I can only claim £75 per night for a hotel outside London which isn’t great but there’s a decent per diem which could make up for that.

Much of the problems seem to be that I’m dealing with Indian people who don’t know how things are done here – there are UK HR people so bit odd. Latest issues I’m trying to resolve are that I am unable to enter my bank details as they only have a subset of sort codes set up to validate against. Also trying to get my email name to be the name I’m known as rather than the one on my passport – computer says no so far.

Had to pay £25 for background check, wonder if they’ll mind if I put that on expenses?!

Sweepstake how long OP lasts?

I’m going to say 17 weeks, when they ask him to work the third weekend for free in a row.

Seriously though, Good luck and well done with the new job, hope it all works out 🙂