Viewing 40 posts - 20,041 through 20,080 (of 21,377 total)
  • Jeremy Corbyn
  • binners
    Full Member

    I’ll tell you what… just give me a few years sat on this fence and I’ll get back to you with some policy proposals in 2022.

    CaptainFlashheart
    Free Member

    Long game…!

    ransos
    Free Member

    I can’t help thinking what would be happening if you had a leader worth calling that without snorting with derision, with someone like Alastair Campbell in the background.

    Who is this person and have you proposed them for a leadership contest? Obviously that would require you to join the Labour Party, rather than heckling from the sidelines.

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    rone
    Full Member

    Kerley, Kelvin and Kimbers – gets quite tricky keeping you three apart!

    rone
    Full Member

    Binners doesn’t lead one of our big two political parties, he doesn’t have to be up to the job of defeating Johnson, of winning seats, or of leading the country, he doesn’t have to have any answers

    That’s not the context I’m looking for – I’m suggesting that Corbyn has always been in a tricky situation. Binners doesn’t recognise this in any way shape or form.

    He just thinks there’s a straight forward answer without a downside

    There ain’t.

    binners
    Full Member

    Turning up every now and then might be a good place to start…

    #wheresjeremy?

    kelvin
    Full Member

    There ain’t.

    Well, corbyn clearly doesn’t have the answer.
    Binners doesn’t have to, it’s not his job.

    ransos
    Free Member

    Binners doesn’t have to, it’s not his job.

    Indeed, but failing to propose any kind of alternative makes it look like he can’t think of one. Still, it doesn’t matter too much to a Lib Dem supporter.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    He’s probably given up posting alternatives. I just about have. The true believers don’t even want to listen to those of us that voted for Corbyn’s Labour in 2017, and intend to do the same in the upcoming election. They (you) will never listen to those that see Labour under Corbyn as dead or dying.

    dazh
    Full Member

    They (you) will never listen to those that see Labour under Corbyn as dead or dying.

    The problem is that most of the Corbyn haters, to use a work bullshit-bingo phrase, only present problems and not solutions. It’s all very well going on an on about how everything’s shit, but propose a realistic alternative that hasn’t been tried yet. And then do it! I’m not talking about people on here BTW, but labour MPs who have spent the last 4 years sniping but fail to put their money where their mouths are.

    Much as I disagreed with Owen Smith, he at least had the balls to try something. The rest of them spend their time on the news programmes or even worse briefing broadsheet journos about PLP meetings. If they don’t want Corbyn, present a better option and persuade the membership, and most of all stop feeling bloody sorry for themselves.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    Forget about Corbyn haters in parliament, there aren’t enough of us voters who will tolerate Corbyn, or a party putting off having a position on Brexit ‘till after a future General Election. Wakey wakey.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    Binners suggested BUrnham – a brexiteer and racist

    tjagain
    Full Member

    No alternative leader could square the circle of 1/3 of the PLP want brexit for one reason or another, leave votes are critical to labour in northern towns, Urban labour voters are remainers, the whole power of the press is used to assassinate any labour leader.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    Burnham is a weather vane politician. Utterly untrustworthy. Working well as Manchester major though, which surprises me.

    Still doesn’t change the fact that under Corbyn Labour is losing, and we’re all saddled with the millstone of Brexit around our collective necks.

    dazh
    Full Member

    or a party putting off having a position on Brexit

    They’re the only party promising a second ref. You may not agree but that is a position, and it’s very simple, so please don’t pretend it’s not. The main people who need to wake up are people who think voting for the lib dems will prevent brexit.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    A referendum is a policy I support. But the party is officially agnostic on Brexit ‘till after the election. There is no party position on Brexit, because of Corbyn and his sing-song useful idiots. Good luck getting enough people to vote for ‘whatever’.

    dazh
    Full Member

    There is no party position on Brexit

    For the very reasons that some of us repeatedly illustrate which the Corbyn-haters on here are completely dismissive of, or wilfully blind to. Labour policy is a function of the fact that it’s voters, members, and MPs are split on the issue. The fact that the labour party is still together, and for the most part united, is all the confirmation you need that the policy is the right one. Without it, labour would either be in complete chaos or split into two parties, which would give Johnson a completely free run to do whatever he wants, which he can’t because he’s lost every vote since he became PM. And yet the Corbyn haters say there is no effective opposition. If you judge it on govt defeats in the HOC, there’s never been a more successful opposition in history.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    Blah, blah… ‘Corbyn Haters’, blah blah.
    Lost election.
    No Deal Brexit.
    Five years of Johnson as PM.
    Everyone else’s fault.
    Fingers in ears.
    Corbyn is our man.
    United [ignoring everyone who has left].
    How dare anyone vote for anyone else.
    Here’s to five more years of successful opposition.

    dazh
    Full Member

    Kelvin answer me one question. If labour had come down on one side of the brexit divide do you think they would still be functioning as a single party?

    kelvin
    Full Member

    I think they would have lost MPs and members.
    Which they have anyway.
    Yes, they would have probably lost more.
    Sod the party, there is a country to serve.

    dazh
    Full Member

    I think they would have lost MPs and members.
    Which they have anyway.
    Yes, they would have probably lost more.

    So you admit they would be in a weaker position than they are now?

    Sod the party, there is a country to serve.

    That’s a very naive viewpoint. You can’t serve the country unless the party is united and acting as much as possible as a contigious unit. Labour have done much better at that than anyone expected, and the end result has been the defeat of the Johnson govt in every vote. And yet you say they’re not serving the country?

    kelvin
    Full Member

    If there was a leadership election today, Corbyn would win.

    If there was a general election today, Labour would lose, because of Corbyn.

    Obsession with “the party” rather than the country will result in permanent opposition.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    I’m still voting for Labour, and Corbyn, though.
    You can’t put me off, so stop trying.
    Why not try working on convincing other people to vote Labour.

    kerley
    Free Member

    Still doesn’t change the fact that under Corbyn Labour is losing

    And we still don’t know what effect a different leader would have had or where Labour would stand in the polls if a different strategy had been taken.

    You can guess, I can guess but nobody knows. They may have even got the best result going hard Brexit. If they had done that and been winning in the polls would you be applauding Corbyn?
    They may have gone revoke A50 and be losing even more than now. If they had done that would you be applauding Corbyn?

    What could he have done (with proof of how it would have worked out) that you, Binners etc,. would have been happy with?

    zippykona
    Full Member

    I know a remainer in a lib/ con marginal seat that voted Tory to stop Corbyn.

    He really isn’t liked .

    If he was more remain I would vote for him. The country is a  mess due to the Tories. We need to do something different.

    For me though brexit is the battle we need to win right now.

    Edit. Once this is over I’ll be voting green.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    I can only judge him on what he has done. And what he has done is turned away voters despite the governing party ruining the country.

    TurnerGuy
    Free Member

    a brexiteer

    as is Corbyn, so what is your point ?

    outofbreath
    Free Member

    They may have gone revoke A50 and be losing even more than now. If they had done that would you be applauding Corbyn?

    YES!!! That.

    A moderate capable leader with a decent approval rating combined with a revoke policy from day one and Labour would have cleaned up (in 2017 or this time) and this would all have been over with a vast number of people applauding. (Including some EU undecideds and tame Brexiteers who just want this over one way or another as fast as possible.)

    There was no credible remain option in 2017, if Labour with a decent leaded had chosen that route they’d have hoovered up votes like crazy.

    …but that wouldn’t suit momentum/Corbyn/Abbot/MacDonnel because you can’t have real socialism within the EU and Corbyn’s wing of the party won’t had over to a moderate leadership.

    I’m not saying that’s wrong, in their terms they’re doing exactly the right thing, but I’m saying people *would* be applauding if they’d done it.

    TurnerGuy
    Free Member

    thing about Corbyn is that, even if some of his ideas are worthy, an increasing number of people don’t trust him after witnessing him effectively misleading people over a number of issues – everyone jumping on statements about labour wanting to be in the customs union, whereas he was careful to say “a customs union” and not correcting the misconception, letting people believe that he was going to cancel all student debt because he was on a wave of popularity at the time, denying ever meeting any IRA, etc.

    Add that to the general discontent and distrust of politicians/the establishment that is prevalent now and he needs to go.

    Johnson is popular because people are believing his commitment to try to do what he said he would do.

    piha
    Free Member

    What could he have done (with proof of how it would have worked out) that you, Binners etc,. would have been happy with?

    I think that Jeremy should have displayed more clear leadership in the run up to the referendum. Whether it was to Leave or to Remain, then at least people would have known exactly what Jeremy stood for. With a clear position pre-referendum, he could have continued with that position post referendum.

    None of the leading Brexiteer politicians have displayed such a confusing stance over what they want or don’t want. They and their supporters know exactly where they stand and this is the type of leadership people appear to want. Even Boris, once he decided he was a Brexiteer has stuck to his guns and made his position crystal clear to his apparently ever growing support.

    Del
    Full Member

    he is in a no win situation

    That much is certainly true!

    dissonance
    Full Member

    Sod the party, there is a country to serve.

    That would be the equally split country, right?

    kelvin
    Full Member

    As a politician, you can’t ‘follow’ an equally split country, you have to propose the way forward.

    dazh
    Full Member

    but I’m saying people *would* be applauding if they’d done it.

    No they wouldn’t. They would have crucified him as an anti-democrat, soviet wanabee dictator, and you would have been leading the howls of outrage.

    you have to propose the way forward.

    He is. He’s the only leader interested in doing the difficult task of bringing the two sides back together and finding common ground, rather than jumping on a vote-winning leave or remain bandwagon.

    binners
    Full Member

    He can’t lead. That’s his major issue. Hence the constant radio silence. He doesn’t even understand the qualities required for leadership, let alone possess them.

    In his head, he’s still a backbencher. In fact, to quote Malcolm Tucker “you’re so backbench, you’re out by the bins”

    kelvin
    Full Member

    He’s the only leader interested in doing the difficult task of bringing the two sides back together and finding common ground

    He’s not looking for a common ground, he’s been busy crushing all compromises possible put forward by his own MPs. He wants hard Brexit, and has pushed aside anyone else in his party attempting to either facilitate a soft Brexit, and, until very recently, anyone proposing that the public get a vote that might stop hard Brexit. What is the ‘common ground’ he has been finding? Set it out for us… what is he doing to facilitate the ‘difficult task’ of ‘bringing the two sides back together’…? Ignoring the problem, and can kicking ‘till it’s over and he/we/they can move one? Does that look to be working? He’s being dragged glacially into doing and saying anything of substance… word by painful word.

    outofbreath
    Free Member

    No they wouldn’t. They would have crucified him as an anti-democrat, soviet wanabee dictator, and

    50pc of people would have. But their votes would have been split amongst all other parties. The other 50pc would have jumped at the chance to vote for a remain party and be been far less concerned about ignoring the referendum result which was purely advisory.

    Anyway, people are already crucifying a second referendum as being anti-democratic so the net difference is zero..

    you would have been leading the howls of outrage.

    No I wouldn’t. I was saying before the referendum that referendums are stupid and in a representative democracy we should be voting for people who carry out policy, not directly for policy for all the obvious reasons. Nothing I’ve seen since then has changed my mind and I’m strongly against a second referendum for all the same reasons plus some more!

    outofbreath
    Free Member

    rather than jumping on a vote-winning leave or remain bandwagon.

    You accept it would be a vote winner. Good.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    He can’t lead.

    I think you have a different idea of what leadership should be than I do. Which is valid, there are at least two schools of thought.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    Go to Guardian live page to see a great speech by Corbyn setting out Labours priorities

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