So which ideas don’t you like specifically, thm? (genuine question not baiting)

So has anyone named a specific policy of corbyns yet? One from the manifesto I linked to?

Am I too late to call Chris Failing Grayling a ****?

members

Yep! The whole posse!! Behind you!!! Boo!!!!

Documentary on tonight:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b09gtywy/labour-the-summer-that-changed-everything

Watched it. Really interesting to see the election and the aftermath from the inside. Quite sad watching Steven Kinnock near the end making the case that Momentum need him, and he needs Momentum. Then the interviewer asked if Momentum saw it that way…

In a fit of enthusiasm I watched John MacDonnall on Andrew Marr. Starts at 19:00:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b09glv4q/the-andrew-marr-show-19112017

Have to agree Kinnock came across a right plonker at the end!

all the ones that are not right wing free market tory ones DUH

Jezzer seems to be very quiet of late, one could be forgiven for thinking he’s riding an easy wave and watching what happens.

So an allegation that some / none of corbyns policies have ever been tried anywhere but when asked for specific policies so we can have a proper discussion a total refusal to say which ones.

I think we can draw conclusions from the silence

So an allegation that some / none of corbyns policies have ever been tried anywhere but when asked for specific policies so we can have a proper discussion a total refusal to say which ones.

Ok, the policy I choose is Brexit.

Where’s it been tried and been successful? Not with an economically small and simple country but with a substantial and complex economy.

Over to you.

Ok, the policy I choose is Brexit.

Brexit is not a policy. Try again.

TJ I would agree (partially) that its not Labour’s publically stated intention to run a huge budget deficit … but they will. Their tax raising measures will bring in much less money than budgeted, their spending plans will cost much more. Their “investment” will have to be properly counted as debt and it won’t bring the economic boost they claim.

Policies (I say policies as some of this Corbyn just made up on the spot with no idea of the cost)

Renationalisation (including attempting to significantly under compensate shareholders, eg your pension fund – thats almost cwetainly illegal and would be challenged in the courts)
£500bn into a government bank (£250bn of that will be borrowed from private sector but will require a govt guaranty)
Significant increases in public sector wages
Abolishing student loans and “sorting” existing student debt
Significant increases in welfare payments

All of this to be delivered and much more by a Marxist Chancellor well aware he needs to prepare for a run on the £ and capital flight

BTW on Brexit – no freedom of movement, commitment to honour referendum leave the EU (both in manifesto) plus leaving the customs union and THE single market (Labour voted last night to oppose an EU withdrawl bill amendment to stay in the customs union)

ambalaya – Member
TJ I would agree (partially) that its not Labour’s publically stated intention to run a huge budget deficit … but

Tories are going to spend billions on brexit that will bugger the economy…

Marxist

Yawn. Change the record, will ya?

TJ I would agree (partially) that its not Labour’s publically stated intention to run a huge budget deficit … but they will.

Your opinion Vs a carefully costed piece of work from Labour

Jamba how are the tories getting on with their promise to eliminate the deficit and reduce national debt? I presume they’ll start doing this before brexit happens?

Here’s a clue…

Just watched last night’s doc.
Thought it was odd that he didn’t follow any aspect of Momentum until after the election.
I wasn’t aware of the stuff surrounding Sarah Champion immediately after the election. I’ll look it up further.

Quite a lot to take in. Lucy Powell looked like she might have been receptive to a collaboration but was immediately squeezed out (or at least that’s how it was portrayed) due to her past allegiances.

Kinnock and Powell chose their side, and they lost. That’s how it works. Now they want to be respected?

That scene where Kinnock was being told off by his wife was hilarious. He looked like Hugh Abbott in the thick of it. The hubris of these people is shocking. Leadership material my arse.

Thought it was odd that he didn’t follow any aspect of Momentum until after the election.

They covered angry Momentum Volunteers in Wales before the election, but yeah, there wasn’t much.

I wasn’t aware of the stuff surrounding Sarah Champion immediately after the election. I’ll look it up further.

I remember hearing her comments on the Radio and thinking she was crazy to say it and I thought she was right to resign. On last night’s show she totally justified her decision AFAIC. I hadn’t heard about the Sun article, but the Sun readership is exactly the readership Labour need to address. There’s no votes in preaching to the converted.

Jamba how are the tories getting on with their promise to eliminate the deficit and reduce national debt? I presume they’ll start doing this before brexit happens?
Here’s a clue…

Yeah, Tories are deffo borrowing way too much. So if Corbynomics is right GDP should be rapidly increasing fueled by all the spending and thus ‘reducing’ borrowing. Is it?

Kinnock and Powell chose their side, and they lost.

To be fair they’re well aware of that, they don’t dispute it. That’s why the PLP made such desperate attempts to unseat Corbyn.

OOB – depends on what you are spending the money on IIRC

OOB – depends on what you are spending the money on IIRC

Terrific, in which case perhaps you could answer the QT guy’s question to Emily Thornberry and offer an example of a Country that’s spent the money on the right stuff and succeeded.

Germany would be the best example. Continued with printing money after the UK went to austerity. Result – economic growth far outstripping the UKs

Needless to say that neither the above is true.

Germany underperformed UK for sustained period 2012-16 but is growing faster now. DIfferent cycles.

Germany running record budget surpluses, UK running large deficits.

Merkel committed to balanced budgets too.

What next? Labour’s plans fully costed?

Germany would be the best example. Continued with printing money after the UK went to austerity. Result – economic growth far outstripping the UKs

Germany!? German is pretty much the gold standard of European Neo-Liberal economics. They even force it on the likes of Spain and Greece.

You can’t just point at any successful country and say “That was Corbynomics!”.

C’mon try harder.

Germany continued to spend money on capital projects and infrastructure which led to growth. Pretty much my understanding of what Corbyn intends. the tories cut spending leading to less growth thus Germany outperformed the UK

Its basic Keynes economics

So if Corbynomics is right GDP should be rapidly increasing fueled by all the spending and thus ‘reducing’ borrowing. Is it?

1. WTF is Corbynomics?
2. Is that what you claim the tories are now doing?

In answer to 1 It looks like pretty standard Keynesiasm to me. If you borrow/spend to invest to create jobs and maintain full employment and livable wages it drives demand. If instead you cut investment/spending you end up spending the same to plug the gap created by decreasing tax receipts and increasing welfare budgets, which is what the tories are now doing*

*Doesn’t even take into account brexit, which we’ve barely started paying for.

*Waits for THM to come along with a patronising comment about how I’m not an economics professor*

Continued with printing money after the UK went to austerity. Result – economic growth far outstripping the UKs

nothing to do with everybody buying German goods then or Germany taking in as many immigrants as it can ?

the percentages are so low you can’t draw a conclusion like that from them, or rather only a rabid leftie can…

https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/gdp-growth

https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/gdp-growth

Politics aside how do we improve the UK for non London non rich people?

Genuine question

Its basic Keynes economics

It looks like pretty standard Keynesiasm to me

In which case the treasuries of the world will be well aware of it, and already using it as appropriate.

Is that what you claim the tories are now doing?

I think almost all EU govts are, and they all started to do it about the same time. Once they ran out of room on the monetary side, as much fiscal as they could get away with was the only tool they had left.

The question was which country spent money for greater growth. Germany is a classic example. NOw of course the total situatioin was different but it is beyond doubt that germany kept on spending the money and got greater growth

As I said – basic Keynes.

Germany would be the best example. Continued with printing money after the UK went to austerity. Result – economic growth far outstripping the UKs

Nothing to do with the failing EU economies depressing the value of the Euro helping Germany’s balance of trade?

daz correct but don’t worry Keynes is probably the most widely misused/abused economists ever, so you are not alone. What people generally call Keynsian policies are generally a million miles from what he actually advocated. He must be turning in his grave. Poor guy

Errm – the pound fell more than the euro so that one won’t wash

Angela Merkel 2009

“The crisis did not take place because we were spending too little but because we were spending too much to create growth that was not sustainable.”

And don’t forget the Germans were to ones who were insisting that S European economies implemented austerity (real austerity not the fake UK version) at exactly the wrong times, creating economic destruction in those countries.

Still you chose who you want to believe….

As I said – basic Keynes.

John MacDonnel’s going to look like a right muppet if/when he’s in power and he turns up to his first meeting with the Treasury Civil Service economists and his grand plan is something taught at A Level.

Their response is gonna be: “Don’t you think we already thought of that?”

This gives Angela Merkel’s government — which has been following tight fiscal policies and limiting spending

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/10/24/germanys-economy-is-too-strong-what-will-the-new-government-do/

https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2017/nov/21/uk-borrowing-deficit-public-finances-hammond-bank-of-england-business-live

This is what the tories policies have done.

Interesting all this stuff about Keynesian economics and whether it’s a workable solution, but I actually think the labour party are thinking far more radically. Something along the lines of this. Don’t ask me if it’ll work, but a new solution that is neither 20th century Keynesianism or 20th century neo-liberalism is required, and the labour party are at least exploring the possibilities.

@daz pretty well, they have halved the deficit. That’s incredibly difficult (and painful) to do. Overspending is easy, reigning it in is hard

@mike the Tories aren’t spending anything on Brexit (**), May has offered to pay into the EU budget for a further two years in return for a transition period and future free trade deal. No deal no money. As to the various sums thrown around (€40bn, €60bn, €100bn) they just show the real and hidden cost of being an EU member, deliberately underfunded pensions, lots of “development loans” which never get repaid etc. All adds up to way more than the €363m per week in the official ONS data.

Will be interesting what numbers the OBR/HMT put into the budget on Wednesday, what amounts if any post April 2019

(**) we have and will spend some amounts on implementing Brexit, customs etc but we’ll get that back in tariffs as we’ll no longer have to send 80% of what we collect to Brussels.