A new rebellion is building I see

It should be a free vote. The referendum was advisory so they should certainly consider its result. Its just how they consider it. Bristol West was 80% remain. The interesting thing in that article is that Labour have the 25 most pro remain constituencies and the 25 most pro leave. If that is true then it shows they really are a party of 2 halves. Bristol West is firmly in the middle class islington elite section, although may well go green next time.

There is a general problem for MPs in remain areas though – if they vote for article 50 they will face censure from their electorate, but to vote against the white paper is to vote against democracy. I could well understand them deciding to abstain in this situation – say that they cannot in good conscience vote to trigger Art 50, but will not seek to frustrate the democratic will of the country.

No way. If they think leaving the EU will cause significant damage to the UK they are honor bound to vote against it, just as they would if there was a referendum to nuke Bristol. The referendum had no more legal meaning than an opinion poll.

Even if it did compel them to do something it was only decided by 2pc which would be fairly easily ignored.

I can only conclude the truth must be either:

1) In their opinion Brexit won’t do much harm or might even be beneficial.
2) In their opinion Brexit will be so utterly bad it won’t happen even if they vote for it.

Of course, pandering to the most ignorant and racist sections of society is the right way to do things.

I voted remain, but you are on very dodgy ground making that assumption. It was a mistake to have a referendum in the first place. Hopefully that’s a lesson learnt.

It should be a free vote.

On an issue as big as this even a 3 line whip is effectively a free vote because Nobody is going to wreck Britain in exchange for the promise of a short term ministerial position.

The consequences the Whips are insignificant in comparison to the consequences of disaster for the UK.

This was always going to happen though, wasn’t it? The ‘leader’ who has spent his entire career rebelling against the party leadership, now telling everyone they better bloody well do as they’re told, was always going to be met with a whole lot of “yeah, right… whatever!”

Especially on an issue as huge and divisive as this

Especially on an issue as huge, and divisive as this

I think that’s the crux, more so than Corbyn’s record. On a finely balanced and insignificant issue people will toe the line. On this? No chance.

Obviously it shouldn’t be a 3-line whip. He’s just inviting rebellion and handing a perfect opportunity for his opponents to mount a new challenge to him. This time they can at least claim they’re rebelling on a point of principle, rather than simply seeking to get rid of him. It’s so idiotic I’m beginning to think he’s trying to engineer a way out where he can step down without being accused of betraying the membership. He surely would have to step down if another mass shadow cabinet walkout occured. Wouldn’t he?

It’s so idiotic I’m beginning to think he’s trying to engineer a way out

Corbyn can’t lose. He genuinely wants out of the EU. If the cost is he loses the leadership then great, he never wanted it in the first place and it’s been an utter nightmare for him from day one. Win Win.

I don’t think he will be put out of his misery though – he’s like Mugabe, he wants to go but his henchmen (the membership in this case) won’t let him.

This was always going to happen though, wasn’t it? The ‘leader’ who has spent his entire career rebelling against the party leadership, now telling everyone they better bloody well do as they’re told, was always going to be met with a whole lot of “yeah, right… whatever!”

Every vote has been a free vote for Corbs so he could have said “all votes under me a free votes” New Politics etc.

Another one gone.

She can think it’s a “terrible mistake” all she likes but it Brexit is a done deal, just the details to work out and they will be determined by the Government. She would be better served trying to make Labour electable by 2025.

It does look like he is trying hard to jump.
In reality there was lots he could do, make a play for the disaffected, point out what is at stake for them and how they want safe guards to limit what can be don without more consultation. He could be proposing a lot of amendments aimed at the core disillusioned labour vote, he has many options but he will just quietly go away….

Anyone know where Jezza is today? The whole world is kicking off about Trump’s muslim ban, our own prime minister is openly being accused of being an appeaser, a million people have signed a petition in less than 24 hours, and the main thing I’ve heard/seen from the labour party is their former leader sending a tweet out. I presume he’s too busy to consider a couple of off the cuff interviews on the news channels?

Monday is jam making day.

It’s Vanessa Redgrave’s birthday, so they’ll be in a front room somewhere, perhaps railing against something and writing banners.

Monday is jam making day.

I thought he was “totally against sugar on health grounds”, though?

Yes, but he is for jam because some people who eat jam might be footballers.

He was on Pesto on Sunday. Perhaps today is a recovery day?

some people who eat jam might be footballers.

*applause*

He’s trying to make his mind up what to say and then practice saying it without deviation. That takes time

There seems to be some subtleties to this Article 50 bill that I can’t quite get my head around.
The way it’s written in the Guardian is that there is one vote (next week) and that the 3 line whip is for that.

Elsewhere I’ve read that there are 3 votes and it can be stopped at any time. The 3 line whip is only for the first of these, to show that Labour recognise and respect the referendum result.

At the second 2 votes more amendments take place and the ‘shape’ of the bill becomes clearer, allowing Labour to specify exactly which elements of the bill they object to should they wish to vote against.

I’ve read a few political commentators say that JC is actually playing this pretty well, although that’s certainly not how the media are portraying it. Basically giving May enough rope to hang herself with.

Basically giving May enough rope to hang herself with.

Easy done though if you don’t tie the other end to something it doesn’t work….

Alex all legislation has 4 readings / debates / votes, namely commons / lords / commons / lords

Supposedly 100 Labour MPs will defy the whip (in JC’s mould 😉 ) plus the SNP – so vote will be something like 500 vs 150

But the question is, does the whip only refer to the first vote and is Labour going to vote against when it comes back?

But the question is, does the whip only refer to the first vote and is Labour going to vote against when it comes back?

They get to decide each time, any amendments need to be voted on their merits so you reevaluate your position each time it comes back. If somebody is actually thinking there will be something that has to appeal to enough tories and opposition to stall it. Given May’s recent performance wonder if as many are feeling like she is the right one for the job…

I do think Corbyn has made a mistake here. As above tho he would be pilloried in the press no matter what he does.

A large section of the party want to pander to the xenphobes, another section have principles and will vote in accordance with them. the vast majority of labour mps personally want to stay in.

But the question is, does the whip only refer to the first vote and is Labour going to vote against when it comes back?

Why would the whip significantly effect how MPs vote on an issue as big as this?

I love Corbyn’s Logic…..

I am going to table a stack of amendments to your bill, but regardless of your reaction to any of those is, I’ve ordered everyone that they absolutely have to vote in support of it anyway

Right up there with ‘don’t tell ’em your name Pike!’

I am going to table a stack of amendments to your bill, but regardless of your reaction to any of those is, I’ve ordered everyone that they absolutely have to vote in support of it anyway

Which given he’s in favour of leaving the EU is spot on. If he can make the exit as smooth as possible his leadership will have a achieved something in the eyes of the left.

binners – that’s why I’m asking if there is actually a plan to block later. i.e. be seen to follow the referendum, until something specific to May’s brexit gives them a plausible reason to block.
(plausible in the eyes of leavers in Labour heartlands).

Probably too much to hope for.

hat’s why I’m asking if there is actually a plan to block later.

If there is a plan I’m sure somebody will tell him about it when it’s time…
You get the feeling Ed would have at least managed a small wood carving by now

A plan?

Sure there’s a plan. A cunning one. As cunning as a cunning fox who has just been appointed professor of cunning at Oxford University….

It’s what everyone associates with Jeremy after all. Fox like political cunning

I do think Corbyn has made a mistake here.

It’s going to bury him. His entire leadership is premised on the rejection of new labour tory-lite policies. Yet on the single biggest and most important issue in decades, the labour party at his command are once again voting to support the tories (and UKIP).

The vast majority of labour MPs are staunchly pro-remain.
A large majority of labour voters are pro-remain.
Most trade unions are pro-remain.
Most (IMO – I don’t know the figures) labour members are pro-remain.
Most (again IMO) Corbyn leadership voters are pro-remain.

Absolute madness. I know a lot of people who voted for Corbyn. Not a single one of them I’ve spoken to supports his position, and are now openly saying that he’s no better than previous leaders who pandered to vocal minority interests. The only difference this time is that instead of middle class marginal voters, it’s working class reactionaries. The former would at least have won him some elections, the latter will never vote for him anyway.

Fox like political cunning

Well, something beginning with ‘c’ . . .

Pretty much bang on there Daz. But that’s conviction politics for you. What the hell did people expect?

The irony of the archetypal lefty, the stuff of right wing press horror stories, delivering the Tory’s a complete unopposed free pass to tear up workers rights, then a blank sheet of paper to re-write the constitution, absolutely defies belief!

Or it would be if it was anyone else other than that ****-wit handing it to them

And that’s before you even start to think about the serial rebel getting all huffy about backbenchers refusing to do his bidding on a matter of principle, and we truly are in la la land

He’s about to sign away pretty much everything Labour achieved over a whole century. Their whole legacy! And he’s too stubborn and shit thick to even see it!

Conviction politics eh? Brilliant!

Jammy c***?

But that’s conviction politics for you.

I’m not even sure this is conviction politics. Corbyn’s own views aside, the clear principles of the labour party are pro-remain, and to me and everyone else it looks like Corbyn is going against these principles in favour of electoral expediency*. That’s not conviction politics, it’s no better than what new labour did.

*He hasn’t even got this right, as voting for article 50 is not going to win or save him any seats. When the blairites abandoned party principles they at least won elections, Corbyns going to throw the baby out with the bath water.

This is them explaining their position as clearly as possible:

Labour MP @Keir_Starmer sets out @UKLabour's position at the #Brexit bill debate https://t.co/6OOSueawf4

— Sky News (@SkyNews) January 31, 2017

Perhaps he believes (1) in respecting the vote and (2) that immigrants are not the root of our problems. Radical views I accept.

respecting the vote

I’d prefer he respected the vote of the vast majority of labour voters, MPs and members, and the 48% of people who voted in the referendum. His job is to oppose the government, not give them a blank cheque in a shameless and pointless attempt to appease idiots and racists in constituencies where UKIP are stirring up hatred and racism.