More revisionism. Anyone can look at the long term trends in voter share of the main parties. Since the end of WW2, labour has seen a greater decline than the Tories. Except for……guess when?? And guess just how close the share of he-who-cannot-be-mentioned delivered as leader was to LT highs. And now….???

The facts can’t be altered unless you want to revise history. TJ I take my hat off to you, the new username is perfect.

For the non-revisionists

http://www.ukpolitical.info/ConvLab.htm

One thing the public hate above all else is public disunity in political parties.

You mean like people consistently being against the party leadership? Yeah. People hate that….

🙂

Cmon Cpn be fair, as we were told a few pages back

In contrast Corbyn has been tirelessly supporting and fighting for the Labour Party for decades.

And facts cant be altered (apparently)

‘Tis true CFH Remember Major and “the bastards” Don’t matter what party – disunity is a vote loser.

http://www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/rp12-43.pdf

Yep all those votes against PFI, Iraq War etc shame on him.

Blair won but I think it was a trick that cant be repeated every G.E. for evermore. A more palatable version of the Tories he was for 3 elections, a clever ploy which coincided with some shit Tory leaders.

But people now will just vote Tory if they want Tory. Labour had lost the ability to be critical of the Tories as the Tories couukd just say for example “you started the privatization of the NHS” or “Academies were your idea” or “selling the Royal Mail was your idea” etc etc

Members knew it and wanted it, nobody wanted to have another 5 years of so so opposition with Cooper or Burnham or Kendall.

Stop being so naive. The only thing that counts is winning the game, being in power, and having bragging rights over the other lot.

Aye – and Labour were never going to win with Cooper, Burnham or Kedall – and certainly not with Smith

The only thing that counts is winning the game, being in power, and having bragging rights over the other lot. actually being able to make some of your policies happen.

Or, just remain a protest party, sniping from the sidelines.
It’s not about winning a game, it’s about being able to actually do something.

That’s an interesting speech that Corbyn made at the anti NATO rally. He really seems to be saying that NATO is responsible for the Cold War??? And NATO should not have got involved in the Balkan war (the UN were so effective, weren’t they?) ??? From the tone of the speech Corbyn sounds like he’d want Britain to leave NATO! Apart from wanting world peace, what are his foreign policies ?

If politicians answered all the hypothetical questions put to them there would no end to them, that’s the beauty of a hypothetical question – you can change them is any way you want to catch out your opponent, they don’t refer to actual real circumstances.

Would you be prepared to go to war with Russia ?” is a pointless and rather silly question, just like answering “yes”, or “no” for that matter, would be a pointless and rather silly answer.

It’s a sad reflection on British politics that support for a politician might be dependent on their willingness to go to war with Russia.

I’m glad he didn’t answer it. Let’s focus on grown-up politics, although I know it’s a novel idea.

The question was at a debate, where, you know, politicians are meant to be answering all kinds of questions, on where they stand on all kinds of issues. Corbyn couldn’t be honest and say he was anti NATO, as in that video a few pages back.

Oh another thing, don’t expect Corbyn to automatically, do the right thing, and step down if he loses the next election, I read that if he still had his precious ‘mandate’ he could stay on as party leader, rejoice now 😉

Alexander for example refused to stand alongside the junior doctors in their strike – a strike that had the support of the majority of the public. How much stronger would both the labour party and the doctors have been if we had seen the entire PLP on the picket lines?

maybe she didn’t agree with the reasons for the strike

the doctors didn’t even agree with the BMA negotiating team

and if JC wins a general election will the GP’s strike when he removes all private providers from the NHS?

People voted for Mrs Thatcher not least as a rejection of the more traditionally left Labour Party’s track record including having to be bailed out by the IMF, numerous power cuts due to striking miners and piles of uncollected rubbish in the streets. Those “working class” Labour voters who contributed to this could not have acored a bigger own goal if they had tried.

Referencing Mrs T in regard to Corbyn really is taking things back to what where very much to the bad old days of the 1970’s

@yunki one of the reasons I am against uncontrolled immigration is it lowers the wages of working class people (as I said numerous times before EU migrants are no threat to my line of work at all) and contributes to higher levels of unemployment as jobs are taken in part by new migrants rather than existing citizens. Then we have the financial consequences of this where we get the complaints of “growing income inequality” and increasing demands on welfare as full time work doesn’t pay enough. I do find it auite bizarre that the right are blamed for growing income inequaloty when its uncontrolled migration and a race to the bottom of lowest price that is driving dowm wages at the lower end

Cmon

someone in the know must be able to explain how this Cooperative Party thing is going to work….

@futon – if Corbyn makes to a general elction in 2020 we’ll be seeing plenty more speeches from the archives like that one. It’s a massive open goal which the Tories and Lib Dems will be only too happy to score into, again and again.

Cooperative Party

Just like Kinder Gentler Politics. Co-operate with us or you’re out

@yunki one of the reasons I am against uncontrolled immigration is it lowers the wages of working class people (as I said numerous times before EU migrants are no threat to my line of work at all) and contributes to higher levels of unemployment as jobs are taken in part by new migrants rather than existing citizens.

Sorry Jambas thats still a crock. Read last week’s report from the Rowntree Foundation

http://www.resolutionfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/A-brave-new-world.pdf

It’s not about winning a game, it’s about being able to actually do something.

DO something worthwhile Cpt not just do something

Being a little less tory than tories is not really doing anything much- certainly to the eyes of the lefties. We dont share your win at any cost and damn the principles mantra. DId not end up to well for Davey boy what with the referendum and all that…or for the country for that matter – though the later is debatable depending on your EU view.

someone in the know must be able to explain how this Cooperative Party thing is going to work….

based on the previous chairman, coke and hookers!!!

DO something worthwhile

Agreed! I thought that was implied, but apologies if not.

Being in opposition is a fine and noble thing, if you are able to effectively oppose, but surely the goal should be to be in a position to do something. Something worthwhile, obviously! Lots of it.

You can’t do that in opposition.

We dont share your win at any cost and damn the principles mantra

Not my mantra.

It’s not about winning a game, it’s about being able to actually do something that the party membership and voters want you to do.

FTFY

Given that Owen Smith and his supporters have now accepted* most of Corbyn’s policies and disowned the strategies of the last two failed elections it would appear the win at any cost approach has now been abandoned.

*A huge assumption of course, and one that the members don’t look ready to swallow, with good reason.

Given that Owen Smith and his supporters have now accepted* most of Corbyn’s policies and disowned the strategies of the last two failed elections it would appear the win at any cost approach has now been rejected by everyone.

True, but very unusual to opt for lose at any cost approach – who does that serve?

Plus we really do need an opposition at some point – a shadow cabinet would be a start

True, but very unusual to opt for lose at any cost approach – who does that serve?

Totally agree. But is that the strategy of Corbyn or his PLP and media opponents?

Plus we really do need an opposition at some point – a shadow cabinet would be a start

Totally agree again. Unfortunately most of the original shadow cabinet through their dummies out the pram and now they’re bogged down with another leadership election.

True also CPt but one cannot capitulate on ones principles just to get power as that renders its meaningless.

The goal is to persuade the electorate of the justness of your ethos and the merits of your goals

i think we can all agree the Labour party is having a spectacular fail on that front, it is and is factionalized to breaking point.TBH, for me, after the first few months, social contract, minimum wage etc Blair did nothing much a Tory would not have done. PPI, Academy schools,Iraq etc I saw very little left wing in him at all or anything to feel passionate about- not quite as twatty as the **** would be my summation of him.
Its not something i aspire to massively, we are better than that IMHO, but its not as bad as the tories unfettered- from my perspective obviously

I am not really sure how you can object to a principled stance though you may well object to the principles stood for.

I dont think it will win though but i dis not mind seeing the experiment played out. Problem is the PLP and the forces of the media have ensured that we can see the result now.

EDIT:

Not my mantra.

Unfair comment I apologise and withdraw it

Totally agree. But is that the strategy of Corbyn or his PLP and media opponents?

264 pages have been spent (not) answering that one 😀

But in recent times, the most successful party in UK politics has abandoned principles, deceived and happily delivered RW* policies with LW* rhetoric. And the voters have lapped it up in spades.

Look North, young old man, look North…..

* not forgetting that these terms are well past their sell by date

No apology needed, Junky my old prawn and pickle sandwich! 🙂

I am not really sure how you can object to a principled stance though you may well object to the principles stood for.

Well this is just it, isn’t it? I admire people who stand on principle, even if I disagree with those principles. The key here is to get enough people to agree with enough of your principles to elect you, thus allowing you to actually act on those principles. Otherwise, they’re just a one cheek sneak of a fart in a jacuzzi.

True and this is the grip of the dilemma here.
Corbyn almost certainly is unelectable – not necessarily his fault but he needs either the PLP or the press and he has neither.
He is screwed and so are the party.

I dont see anyone we , the broad church of the left, can unite behind. The PLP hate corbyn, I [ we?] hate them. Its a mess.

I almost wish for David Milliband ….its that bad.

Corbyn really acted on his principles re unilateralism didn’t he? He used his power to change policy at conference as leader, and to whip his troops into voting against renewal of trident, did’t he? He really brought all that conviction to bear didn’t he – so effective! What a leader! 😉

😀

Time for one of my favourite cartoons of recent time (this I may have posted before)

David Miliband. I dislike him and actually don’t see him being viewed that differently to his brother by the electorate BUT I wonder if he would have got the RW press on side?

dazh – Member
Stop being so naive. The only thing that counts is winning the game, being in power, and having bragging rights over the other lot.

Eh? I must be really **** naive. Cooper, Burnham and Kendal had no chance of winning a G.E

I almost wish for David Milliband ….its that bad.

Careful. It’s that kind of thinking that could get Labour elected.

But in recent times, the most successful party in UK politics has abandoned principles, deceived and happily delivered RW* policies with LW* rhetoric. And the voters have lapped it up in spades.

And that’s what I would suggest Corbyn is changing. Obviously not enough to win an election any time soon, and certainly not with him at the helm. But if that change is indeed what is happening, then it’s worth the long haul. I think many in the labour party, and outside given the number of new members they’ve acquired, agree with this, and it’s why those who don’t still don’t understand what’s going on. I hate to use the word as all sorts of hysteria and cliche is attached to it, but what is going on right now is quite revolutionary. The labour party is now the largest political party in Europe, with a membership and leadership (even the non-leadership if you take Smith at his word) united against the status quo of the past 40 years. The fact that this could happen here, in perhaps the most neo-liberal and rightwing country in Europe (or perhaps the world), is pretty amazing. It’s hardly a surprise the upheaval it’s causing.

Eh? I must be really **** naive. Cooper, Burnham and Kendal or anybody else off that conveyor belt had no chance of winning a G.E

There is no sarcasm smiley.

The labour boys are v quiet on this whole Cooperative thingy so far. Do they not read the broadsheets?

So is it going to be

(Back to the) Labour and Cooperative Party
The Labour and/or Coopperatuve Party
The Labour or the Cooperatuve Party
HM LT Opposition
None the above?

As I have posted before I thought David Milliband would have been the right leader with tye potential of creating a party I might vote for. I am certain he would,have won oevr the middle ground swing voters necessary to win power.

TMH I don’t read much from JRF, its a politically motivated organisation with a clear agenda. Do you see the chart which shows EU migration jumping from 15k pa for 200k+ plus from 2003 and how those new EU countries provide workers with average incomes lower than the UK average, they are taking low paid jobs and depressing wages of existing workers. It really isn’t rocket science (which btw the way is a proper sciemce unlike Economics which is at best a hybid science and arts subject full of conjecture)

Cooperative Party. Maybe its to do with stamps ?

Interesting dash although I have a different interpretataion at least with respect to principles and telling the truth. IMO we are seeing exactly the opposite to what you suggest, hence the tag lines #posttruthpolitics. There are no ST answers to how we get ourselves out of the levels of excess leverage. This plays into the hands of protest parties of any political persuasion as long as they are not the incumbents. So they spout BS and lies and pretend these are the answers. And this is lapped up by those desperate for the ST answered that do not exist. The worst part of all of this is that xenophobia, racism and isolationalism are common themes.

In this context the Labour Party shenanigans are merely an amusing sideshow and distraction from the more concerning political developments around us.Of course, when this spills over into silly comments re NATO then it does become very serious.

Jambas I appreciate the you prefer not to read much on this issue 😉 hence your habit of making incorrect statements about the impact of immigration. But if the RF are likely to have any bias it is more likely to be wanting to show the effect that you describe. That the reject your hypothesis instead is all the more telling.

dazh – Member
There is no sarcasm smiley.

Ah yes you would have made more sense with a sarcasm smiley! Try ;~) if yours isn’t working.

😉