ninfan is quite right. Some of my best friends describe themselves as “working class” 😯 and voted leave for precisely those reasons. They see all around them shifting sands, the destruction of a country they had come have pride in and a perception that they had been left behind and that no one was speaking for, or listening to them.

They may be wrong or they may be right but it is not their fault.

The management of the European project has failed because of the incompetence of those who were meant to be steering it. A huge, if not the biggest task, was to carry it’s Citizens with it. They seem to have failed and plunged us in to chaos and it is THEY who are to blame.

But there has not been the political honesty by any of our leaders to admit it. And it’s broader than just leaders, it is a fault of establishment and the metropolitan/cosmopolitans that are described in the BBC research chaps memo.

Its nothing new of course

“Most of our people have never had it so good”

They may be wrong or they may be right but it is not their fault.

Correct. But it is them who will suffer.

Really? Last I looked, they are not the only people living in the UK…

Tad elitist of you.

Corbyn was set up by Blarite PR company

“a single heckler shouts at Jeremy Corbyn at Gay Pride, and not only is that front page news in the Guardian, it is on BBC, ITN and Sky News.

“What makes a single individual heckling a politician newsworthy? … this heckler, uniquely, is front page news and his words are repeated at great length in the Guardian and throughout the broadcast media.”

“The “heckler” is Tom Mauchline, a PR professional for PR firm Portland Communications, a dedicated Blairite (he describes himself as Gouldian) formerly working on the Liz Kendall leadership campaign. Portland Communications’ “strategic counsel” is Alastair Campbell.

So far from representing a popular mood, Mauchlyne was this morning on twitter urging people to sign a 38 Degrees petition supporting the no confidence motion against Corbyn. Ten hours later that petition has gained 65 signatures, compared to 120,000 for a petition supporting Corbyn. “

Quoted from
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2016/06/news-agenda-set/

SAVE CORBYN
petition at

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/a-vote-of-confidence-in-jeremy-corbyn-after-brexit

Over 184,000 signed so far and rising rapidly.

Really? Last I looked, they are not the only people living in the UK…
Tad elitist of you.

Didn’t mean it to come across that way. However, I’ll take some convincing that a factory worker at a car plant which may now move to the EU will suffer less than a white collar middle class worker who has far more social mobility.

I don’t think it will be pretty for anyone, but I think it’s fairly undeniable that it will hit the poor the hardest

The point is, ninfan, it may be true that this is a protest vote by those left behind. But voting Leave ain’t going to change it. These are global forces, not European ones. Technology and globalisation have had a major impact on these people’s lives.. Tell me how you think voting Leave is going to change it, except for the worse. I’ll be honest, I can’t see an easy solution, or indeed any solution, but the majority of Leave voters have been manipulated by a small core of ideologues and their resentment has been aimed at the wrong target. Sound familiar? I mean, by Christ. Ebbw Vale votes leave, despite being a massive recipient of EU money. Just how dumb is that?

I like Corbyn and think he would make a smashing next door neighbour. He also stops the labour party from being electable. Which is nice.

Who would make Labour electable?

I think Corbs should be given a fair crack of the whip by his party (never mind the media)

Benn funny on Marr saying:

Brexit vote must be followed through because democracy.

Corbyn must be kicked out never mind democracy.

If you look at the global reaction to Brexit, it is pretty clear that this is the UK’s Trump moment. A lot of unhappy, confused and angry people have lashed out at the world in a way that makes no rational sense whatsoever.

Given time, the remainers will accept things.

Given time, the remainers will accept things.

& the rest of the world? Doesn’t look good for us at the moment

Blimey 9 months ago I bought Jezza at 475 days in a fit of optimism!!!

Then able to sell to ro5ey at 490 pretty quickly.

He might last 475 days! What was I thinking?

The point is, ninfan, it may be true that this is a protest vote by those left behind. But voting Leave ain’t going to change it. These are global forces, not European ones. Technology and globalisation have had a major impact on these people’s lives.. Tell me how you think voting Leave is going to change it, except for the worse. I’ll be honest, I can’t see an easy solution, or indeed any solution, but the majority of Leave voters have been manipulated by a small core of ideologues and their resentment has been aimed at the wrong target. Sound familiar? I mean, by Christ. Ebbw Vale votes leave, despite being a massive recipient of EU money. Just how dumb is that?

aye they bought snake oil from the slipperiest of salesmen who are going to make their lot even worse than it was.
I think many share the concerns of the disenfranchised yet none of the main players on Brexit do. We know this and we know this has not addressed them and now they are about to find this out to.

A lot of unhappy, confused and angry people have lashed out at the world in a way that makes no rational sense whatsoever.

You mean they disagreed with you. You are just sounding like a bad loser. Just like the youth voters complaining the oldies robbed them when part of the reason for the result was the low turnout among young voters.

So who said voting never changed anything?

ctk – Member

Who would make Labour electable?

Bizarre isn’t it. All this effort for the last year to kick out their leader but nobody has the slightest idea who they’d want to replace him. Imagine if the day John Major was kicked out, the Tories had looked around and gone “Hmm. How about whotsisname? Oh he doesn’t want the job? Whatsername? Oh she was 2nd last, last time… That guy with the funny name that’s spent the last year stabbing everyone in the back? Yeah, he’ll inspire trust…”

Still say the same thing, the only thing making Corbyn unelectable is the Labour party. The whole party is just on the piss. But maybe that’s in keeping with current day politics 😆

It makes no rational sense because an area like Ebbw Vale will now not get the EU grants it has been receiving. Those voting Leave have no real answer as to how they are practically going to make things better. Making things worse because your life is already bad is not rational. Sorry.

What I’m hearing from disaffected Labour MPs is basically “we need a godlike figure who the proles will blindly follow, Corbyn ain’t it.”

And its true I suppose. Until Labour sort out their direction the only hope is a personality big enough that policies don’t matter.

it may be true that this is a protest vote by those left behind

No, I don’t think its as simple as a protest vote – I think its actually a cry out for representation because Labour (in particular) left these ‘White working class’ people behind.

We keep talking about the ‘Blairites’ but in many ways it misrepresents the problem, its the ‘Islington set’ and oxbridge PPE that surrounded them that rotted the party from the inside with gesture politics and thinking that words and presentation are more important than gesture or deeds. Corbin and Abbott are as guilty of that as Balls and Kendall. Labour became the party of the public sector rather than the party of the working classes. The unions did much the same, led by politicians who played politics with the lives and jobs of their members in an attempt to prove a point or overthrow the government, rather than represent them, all living in a London bubble, “the working class can kiss my arse, I’ve got the foreman job at last”

IMO one of the worst crimes over the last few years is that the Labour leadership increasingly lumped together the ‘working classes and the ‘benefits cases’ as if they were the same, in need of charity and pity – they fought to protect their benefits rather than fighting to provide them with jobs. They mossed the fact that these weren’t people who wanted to sit on their arses or work in minimum wage jobs subsidised by benefits, they were people who were hugely aspirational and wanted better for themselves and their kids.

Thats why the Tory/Blairite agenda of aspiration and hard work appealed to them – It didn’t rob them of their pride like the Miliband and Corbynite anti austerity agenda, and you only need to see how many of them hate the “beer and fags and benefits” estate types that the Labour party seem to find it impossible to criticise.

I could list a similar, much longer list of criticism of where Thatcher and the Tories went wrong. But I grew up in a Labour household with a dad who was a factory electrician and union shop steward who worked his bollocks off to give us good things, and a mum who was an office manager in manufacturing sector and then the civil service. My mum is the classic example of a lost Labour voter, she has seen her area and her community torn apart under both Labour and the Tories – but there’s only one of the two she feels bitter about. She voted out.

It’s funny, how if this is all about immigration, then why did the places with the most immigration, ie the mahjority of large cities, largely vote to remain?

It’d bugger all to do with immigration.

It’d bugger all to do with immigration.

😯

seosamh – everyone over 60 in my family voted leave. Every single one of them did so because ‘we’ve had enough of immigration’. This is a small sample but this has a lot to do with immigration sadly.

perception of immigration is what it is, not actual immigration. If it was actual immigration, manchestier, london, liverpool, glasgow, edinburgh would all have voted out, they didnt.

perception of immigration is what it is, not actual immigration. If it was actual immigration, manchestier, london, liverpool, glasgow, edinburgh would all have voted out, they didnt.

+1

The whole immigration argument is incredibly sinister, I and plenty others want no part of it.

And yes it is there in the like of glasgow too, I’d to walk away from a couple of people (npo voters) in work over it on friday morning. They are utterly ignorant. And wrong.

Whether it is perception or not a number of leave voters identify immigration as the issue. Of the leave voters I know none of them identified anything else as a reason to vote leave.

Given 25% of doctors in the NHS in which I work are non UK it makes me feel somewhat disappointed.

EDIT

It’d bugger all to do with immigration.

Thats right, keep ignoring them, keep repeating the party line and keep reading out the tractor statistics

That’s a nice chart of utter bullshit.

They are utterly ignorant. And wrong.

This is a totally serious question.

What makes your opinion any more valid than theirs?

I lived in govanhill for the last 6 years of my life, I’ve had family connections to the area since long before I was born, so I have plenty of real life experience of living in the most multicultural part of glasgow. Not their near 100% white schemes.

Which means what?

That they have to like and accept multikulti, because you don’t mind it?

Again, what makes your opinion any more valid than theirs?

It proves my assertion above that their opinion is based on perception, not real experience.

It doesn’t matter what its based on

they still have an opinion, they still have a belief, they still have a vote

so what makes yours more important that theirs?

It’d bugger all to do with immigration.

Believe me it was. Over and over again it was the one reason for Brexit that kept coming up with my friends ( working class ones ) and customers.
ninfan’s post’s hit the mood of many Brexit voters head on. Like him I could list many examples of how “real” people have lost out to immigration. The’re not racists or stupid just that their opinions have been formed by actual life experiences.

Ninfan nails it.

You can’t sneer at people, call them offensive names like racists, bigots, knickledraggers and idiots and then wonder why they haven’t engaged with you.

One thing we repeatedly hear working in sales is “you have 2 ears and one mouth. Use them proportionally”. The politicians and the chattering classes would do well to heed this advice. If a lot of people (I.e. not a few loons but a significant number as we’ve seen) express similar opinions, concerns and perceptions of their world (and remember perception IS reality), those in a position of influence need to listen, absorb, understand and work on the issues raised, not shout them down as we have seen and continue to see.

shoosh ninfan.

Lets take a random example.

stoke on trent.
69.4% out

96.3% of the population of Stoke-on-Trent were born in the UK.

ashfeild
69.8% out.

98% english.

@ninfan I admire your persistance but they are not listening and are in denial.

IMHO London central voted IN as people believed their jobs are at risk from an Leave vote, what’s interesting is most of the commuter belt was much more even with many Leave areas too.

Theres little logic in your argument Joseph –

Windsor and maidenhead – 90.2% White, Voted to remain (53.9%)

neighbouring Slough – 45.7% White, voted to leave (54.3%)

(I recognise that I am using colour as a proxy for immigration, which is over simplistic, but I haven’t found the ‘born in the uk’ statistics

Go figure 😆