…purchase a train ticket before boarding a train, where a ticket office is available at the station.’

Edit: tickets can be bought on the train, just more expensive if your start station has a ticket office, to the tune of around 10%
Just wondering how ‘legal’ this requirement is? Legal in the same way it is a legal requirement to have a license, tax and insurance to drive a car, or legal requirement as in you have to buy a ticket before you go to the cinema?

Which law covers this? Or is it just he train companys trying to squeeze a bit extra out of people running late?

its illegal to avoid paying for a ticket. It is not illegal to board a train without a ticke if you intend on buying one either on the train or at your destination

Law covered by railways legislation and operator’s licence.

I doubt it’s criminal to enter a cinema without a ticket per se, might be fraud or theft.

Not like a rail company to give out misleading info…

Have a look at conditions of carrige regs,

also some stations used to have a dispenser that you got a ticket to travel from that allowed you then to buy a ticket at the station price.

If you also get on a train and havent bought a ticket, and get off at the destination without having bought a ticket, then you have defrauded the railway company.

If you also get on a train and havent bought a ticket, and get off at the destination without having bought a ticket, then you have defrauded the railway company

This is only true if the stop isnt manned by a cashier or ticket machine.
The same applies for shop lifting – you can’t be done for shoplifting until you’ve walked past the last point of paying and exited the building.

I looked into this a little as I was on trains alot and my local station has no ticket machine or point to buy them and my personal bank card doesn’t work with portable billing machines. After I had an arguement with a guard and a station manager because my card doesn’t work with thier machines but it does with everything else.

Basically the way I see it is that you can buy a ticket on the train even if there is a ticket office but you lose any rights too any discount you may be able too have through the use of railcards.

Some guards will use thier discression and give you the discount still if you explain that you’ve just arrived for the train and didn’t have time too queue. But this is usually only on long distance trains.

You can use your discount cards if you have arrived from another train and are taking a connection and you’ve only got a ticket for part way. (I do this sometimes as I take a train to Sheffield then on from there.)

If you can’t pay, guards SHOULD ask you for your details and provide you with a 28 day IOU type ticket basically meaning that you have to go into a station with a ticket office and pay for the fare or you will get a letter through your postbox with a bill. If you refuse to pay you CAN be charged upto £5,000 iirc.

I have NEVER heard of a train charging more for a ticket on the train than at the station. I think that’s illegal in some way.

I’m not sure if that really answered your question but that’s about what I know.

Highlimber – This is only true if the stop isnt manned by a cashier or ticket machine.
The same applies for shop lifting – you can’t be done for shoplifting until you’ve walked past the last point of paying and exited the building.

no actually you can be charged with Theft (by Shoplifting) even if you hadn’t left the store / passed the till; it is simply much easier to prove the intent if you do so than saying – well he looked shifty and hid the gin in his coat.

TomHoward – the upshot it there are specific laws on travelling by train without paying, and unusual power that SOME railways staff have to demand your name and address etc for failing to pay. SOME rail companies are set up to issue penalty charges etc – others are not. Normal practice outside those areas where penalty charges are issue tickets can be bought on the train for the FULL PRICE and cheap day returns, discounts etc may not be available IF you boarded at a manned station [case law has defined the maximum queue length (IIRC 5 mins?)]. Ticket machines are odd as I think most people read the rules as saying if there is a machine but no staff you still need to buy a ticked but I don’t think that is actually what the rules say.

8 posts. 0 citations. 😉

I got busted for not having a ticket when returning from london and trying to leave Southampton station. I had left the ticket on the table on the train after showing it to the ticket inspector.

I tried to get through the barrier using the outbound ticket, realised my mistake and went to the inspector to explain. he smiled, nodded and gave me £110 penalty charge.

Despite having a receipt, the outbound ticket, him recognizing me from the morning (distinctive leg cast), the fact i needed a ticket to get on at Waterloo and my ticket had been inspected while on the train.

His advice was to lie next time and say I got on at the Airport as the penalty charge would have been far less. I appealed and was told it was illegal to travel without a ticket and pay up and shut up.

That’s bloody ridiculous. 😡

No idea about the legality issue, more a post about their powers of enforcement.
Just wanted to add that the “revenue enforcement officers”, train company employees, were carrying handcuffs when I last saw them – 2 big, intimidating, “bouncer-looking” fellas in rail-company logo bomber jackets with the cuffs on very conspicuous display attached to their belts.
Was a bit shocked as I’d assumed that only police could use them, but it appears not.

Wca , id have hit him with my crutch.

When I commuted regularly, I would find it very frustrating that so many people would be so obviously engaged in trying to avoid paying for their tickets. Sit down and wait for the guard rather than going to find him to buy a ticket, and obviously not bothering if the guard did not come throught the train. Two friends (one very wealthy, the other not) were regularly culprits which I found very annoying. It’s basic theft – pure and simple.

I asked a guard why he did not fine people (SWT) and he said that he was not authorised to do so. Only the lesser spotted revenue protection officers could do that and evn they normally only made people buy tickets.

Thinking about, a few years ago people did not view trains as personal waste disposal units as well!?!? 🙁

Wca , id have hit him with my crutch.

Id have kicked him in the crotch.

Mw – he would fall over 🙂

so obviously engaged in trying to avoid paying for their tickets. Sit down and wait for the guard rather than going to find him to buy a ticket

I have never gone looking for the guard on the train to buy a ticket.

I wait for them to come through the train.

If everyone went looking for the guard it would be ridiculous. They come through the train to avoid the obvious carnage that would happen if everyone was tramping round the train looking for them.

if they don’t come, do you pay at the station when you get off?

Yes , the queue at aberdeen in the morning to buy a ticket to get through the gate is horrific. I do like buying my ticket before hand and just walking past em all….

Sorry Neal if this is a blunt reply, but I think your reply typifies the current “Me, myself, I” attitude across much of modern society. There is a clear legal obligation to buy tickets before boarding a train, if the facilities exist. The obligation lies with passengers to pay NOT for the TOCs to collect. Boarding a train without a ticket (when the facilities are available) is theft at worse and selfish at best.

“sorry my life is far too busy and my time far too valuable to inconvenience myself with buying a ticket” 🙁

How’s the view up there on your massive horse? Never boarded a packed train in a hurry?

On the other side, I once only had the return part of my ticket (having discarded the outbound part after use).

The ticket inspector kept me at the station for a good hour after arrival, complete with the British Transport Police, despite two other ticket inspectors failing to see what the issue was. Noone could see what his issue was (I did refuse to surrender the rest of my tickets, as I didn’t see how they had any relevance, and he couldn’t give me a good reason for asking for them).

For months afterwards, I was given a hard time by any other ticket inspectors along the same route, as he’d told them to look out for me. Finally got the story out of one of them and convinced him to get the others to drop it.

When you’re given such a hard time after being a paying customer, I have every sympathy for those who fare dodge.

The obligation lies with passengers to pay NOT for the TOCs to collect.

The obligation also lies with the TOCs to provide the service you’ve paid for. They don’t seem too bothered about late/over-crowded/cancelled trains whilst still increasing fares, are you surprised people may not take a particularly charitable view of them?

There is a clear legal obligation to buy tickets before boarding a train, if the facilities exist.

Perhaps you could be the first to cite a source for your claim.

Of course people would also be less inclined to fair dodge if these weren’t private companies making massive profits for providing a poor service, and regularly demanding handouts from the taxpayer. Eh THM? 😉

Sorry Neal if this is a blunt reply, but I think your reply typifies the current “Me, myself, I” attitude across much of modern society. There is a clear legal obligation to buy tickets before boarding a train, if the facilities exist. The obligation lies with passengers to pay NOT for the TOCs to collect. Boarding a train without a ticket (when the facilities are available) is theft at worse and selfish at best.
“sorry my life is far too busy and my time far too valuable to inconvenience myself with buying a ticket”

You can be as blunt as you like.

But the station I get on at has no facilities to buy a ticket. So I can’t buy one before I get on the train.

I wait for the guard to come and sell me one.

If he doesn’t arrive I buy one at the destination. (I’ve had to do this once in about 15 years, every other time the guard comes as they know that anyone getting on at my station won’t have a ticket)

I don’t have a choice in this as I need a ticket to get out if the station as its barrier controlled.

How does your theory about my selfish attitude work now 😐

On the other side, I once only had the return part of my ticket (having discarded the outbound part after use).

The ticket inspector kept me at the station for a good hour after arrival, complete with the British Transport Police, despite two other ticket inspectors failing to see what the issue was. Noone could see what his issue was (I did refuse to surrender the rest of my tickets, as I didn’t see how they had any relevance, and he couldn’t give me a good reason for asking for them).

For months afterwards, I was given a hard time by any other ticket inspectors along the same route, as he’d told them to look out for me. Finally got the story out of one of them and convinced him to get the others to drop it.

When you’re given such a hard time after being a paying customer, I have every sympathy for those who fare dodge.

Did I read that correctly? The ticket inspector was giving you a hard time because you didn’t have the outbound ticket on your return journey?

I’d like to see him work in most of the bigger stations in Scotland where the automatic barrier keeps your ticket unless it has other journeys left on it.

Did I read that correctly? The ticket inspector was giving you a hard time because you didn’t have the outbound ticket on your return journey?

Yeah. I think he just felt the need to be on some sort of power trip.

As I say, two other ticket inspectors at the station, and two members of the British Transport Police, didn’t see the problem.

grum – Member
How’s the view up there on your massive horse?

I guess there’s no snow on this thread eh, grum!! 😉 But if simply respecting the rule of law is considered being on a massive horse, then so be it. Rather that than putting theft up there, but each to their own. I wouldn’t suggest trying that on the main lift out of Mayrhofen though!!

Never boarded a packed train in a hurry?

Yes and always look immediately for the guard (its normally obvious as they step off the train at my station when doors open, so no excuse for not knowing where he/she is.) That is the legal obligation we accept when deciding to use a train. Pure and simple.

grum – Member
Of course people would also be less inclined to fair dodge if these weren’t private companies making massive profits for providing a poor service, and regularly demanding handouts from the taxpayer. Eh THM?

Please…there has to be a better argument than that? Try listening to some scrote saying the same thing if he/she nicks your bike on the argument that you must have exploited someone else to be able to afford it. Utter BS argument, sorry!

Thought about how the money lost to fare dodgers affects (1) the level of service and (2) the price charged to law abiding people? The extend the same idea to tax evasion and avoidance!

nealglover – Member
But the station I get on at has no facilities to buy a ticket. So I can’t buy one before I get on the train.

Hence my comment lifted from TOC’s website includes the lines, “IF FACILITIES EXIST”.

How does your theory about my selfish attitude work now

Hopefully covered by the above, but if not, sorry I cant mind read or foretell subsequent posts. But in my OP I was trying (unsuccessfully clearly) not to personalise the point but pick on a general type of attitude that exists today (as typified by grum’s argument about “being in a hurry.”) Step back and it is a simply selfish attitude – hence the me, myself, I comment. Not intended to be personal.

sas – Member
The obligation also lies with the TOCs to provide the service you’ve paid for. They don’t seem too bothered about late/over-crowded/cancelled trains whilst still increasing fares, are you surprised people may not take a particularly charitable view of them?

No, but that is still not a reason to condone stealing off the company whose service you/one ultimately “choose” to utilise or off the fellow passengers who have decided to abide by the law. To extend you argument, if I don’t like the way a pub serves its beer or the price it charges, do that give me the right to consume it without paying?

Not intended to be personal.

Well you used my name so i presumed it was aimed at me, and told me my attitude…

…typifies the current “Me, myself, I” attitude across much of modern society

When all I was doing was explaining to you, that if 20 people get on a train and go looking for the guard, with their luggage and folding bikes etc. it would be carnage.

Far better that they find a seat and wait for the guard to come to them. Letting him do his Job as it is supposed to be done.

In fact I could say that anyone getting on the train, and then going in search of the Guard to buy a ticket is displaying a typical “Me first, Me First !!” attitude and they cant just wait their turn like everyone else.

Searching for the guard to buy your ticket would mean he has to stop moving through the train checking/selling tickets in order to “serve” you.

What makes you so important, Just sit down and wait till be gets to you and buy your ticket.

Nothing personal like 🙂

Yes and always look immediately for the guard (its normally obvious as they step off the train at my station when doors open, so no excuse for not knowing where he/she is.) That is the legal obligation we accept when deciding to use a train. Pure and simple.

I’m with nealglover – it would be daft if everyone did that. When I’ve got on without a ticket and bought one on the train the guard has never said ‘you should have come and found me straight away’.

To extend you argument, if I don’t like the way a pub serves its beer or the price it charges, do that give me the right to consume it without paying?

That’s really not a very good analogy is it. It’s more like being in the pub without buying a drink.

Please…there has to be a better argument than that? Try listening to some scrote saying the same thing if he/she nicks your bike on the argument that you must have exploited someone else to be able to afford it. Utter BS argument, sorry!

Stealing a bike is taking that thing away from someone else – again not a great analogy.

Neal, really not intended to be personal

but I think your reply typifies the current “Me, myself, I” attitude across much of modern society.

I was ‘trying’ to suggest (!) that your reply was typical of a general attitude in society and tried NOT to talk specifically about you actions (as I know/knew nothing about them!)

Of course, it is not practical to try to move through crowded trains, but that is still not an excuse for fulfilling a legal obligation. Equally, if the train is that crowded then the guard would not collect the fare and the “theft” would have occurred. But the law is clear (going back to the OP) and the obligation does not lie with the TOC to collect the fare. If anyone choses to ignore that fact, then they must take responsibility for any subsequent repercussions. Same with tax dodgers!

This isn’t meant to be facetious, but if the TOCs said that all passengers had to wear a bobble hat with a bell on, would that make it law? Just because the train company said so?

I understand that using a product/service without intending to pay for it is illegal, as is shoplifting. But the train company having posters and making announcements saying you can’t legally board a train without a ticket is the same as a shop saying you can’t legally come in without (at least intending to) buying something first, or if you don’t pre purchase, you can’t have any in store offers?

Surely, if I don’t meet the legal requirements, I should be arrested? Or fined by the government, not the train operator?.

Apologies for the disjointed nature of the post, thinking aloud!

OK Neal. so despite my explanation you want to make things personal:

nealglover – Member
In fact I could say that anyone getting on the train, and then going in search of the Guard to buy a ticket is displaying a typical “Me first, Me First !!” attitude and they cant just wait their turn like everyone else. Searching for the guard to buy your ticket would mean he has to stop moving through the train checking/selling tickets in order to “serve” you.

On the contrary, I wait until the train is moving and for the guard to be ready to sell me a ticket. Sometimes this takes longer than the trip to the next station, so I actually miss out on a seat (potentially). So hardly a selfish attitude unlike theft, is it? But 9/10 I arrive early enough to buy a ticket – if its early Monday morning especially so, as its obvious that there will be a queue.

What makes you so important, Just sit down and wait till be gets to you and buy your ticket.

Nothing, just prefer to obey the law.

Nothing personal like

Obviously!!

Grum – “taking something away from somebody.” If you steal from the TOC, you steal from other passengers as well. Exactly the same things and a very apt analogy. Anyway – Karma is the ultimate sanction!!

Dont think so Tom as boarding a train means that you are consuming their service. That is not the same as entering a shop – perhaps that would be the same as entering the station? IMO.

Of course, it is not practical to try to move through crowded trains, but that is still not an excuse for fulfilling a legal obligation

Just one question.

Which “legal obligation” am I not adhering to by waiting till the guard gets to me and then buying my ticket ?

Nothing, just prefer to obey the law.

So how am I any different when I wait my turn and buy my ticket when the guard gets to me ??

(Back to OP) Neal, under UK criminal law, one has a legal obligation to purchase a ticket before boarding a train IF FACILITIES exist. We can argue on a forum until the cows come home, but that doesn’t change anything about the current law. It is for that reason, that on the rare (high horse!!! 😉 ) occassion that I have left myself insufficient time to fulfil my legal obligation and buy a ticket, I always ask the guard if it is OK to buy a ticket off him/her BEFORE BOARDING. If he agrees then legally I am covered.

As a car driver who pays taxes to cover the crazilly expensive PRIVATE train companies, I take it as my liberty to only pay when asked to.

Off topic – but I’ve always been amazed at guards on trains ability to only ask the new people on the train to produce their ticket and to remember others that they have already checked. They must see hundreds and hundreds of people a day – that’s a good skill. I must try moving up or down the train or changing my jacket to see if that foxes them!

Konabunny:

http://www.thetrainline.com/buytickets/nationalcarriage.aspx

http://www.grayhooperholt.co.uk/legal-articles/railway-fare-evasion.html

From the law firm’s website:

What are the consequences of a railway fare evasion, and what impact can it have on your future travel plans and employment prospects?

Train operators are taking railway fare evasion incredibly seriously. What’s more, a conviction for travelling without a valid train travel ticket is a criminal offence. Not only will a successful prosecution lead to a genuine criminal conviction, as it is a crime of dishonesty.

So What Should You Do?
Obviously the first and most sensible legal advice is always to buy a valid train travel ticket. If you make a genuine mistake and realise you have done so once you are on the train, find a conductor as soon as possible and explain your mistake and ask to pay for a ticket. Do not wait until you arrive at your destination unless there is no conductor on the train. The onus is on you to prove that you have attempted to buy a ticket, not on the train company to prove that you do not have a valid one, so you must make every effort to buy one.

What Are The Consequences Of A Conviction?

This is a criminal conviction for dishonesty with very serious consequences. [clear enough?]

Employment

The conviction will have to be disclosed on every subsequent application for employment. It never becomes “spent” like a driving offence for say speeding, it will always have to be disclosed. If you apply for a job and are competing against other candidates with similar skills and qualifications as you hold, you may find the conviction for dishonesty weighs heavily against you.

Travel

The conviction will stop you entering certain countries completely. If you are convicted you will not be able to enter Australia or The U.S.A. to name the biggest countries and again this will last indefinitely.