- This topic has 193 replies, 61 voices, and was last updated 12 years ago by v8ninety.
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is the world MAD?? well scotland at least
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TandemJeremyFree Member
No epicylo – I actually intervened personally on a few occasions.
There was no credible that of violence in my opinion. even if there was restraint was all that was needed.
ojomFree MemberEpicyclo has a good point, when we watched it here we commented on just how much crap the ticket chap was meant to take from him. Frankly it was embarrassing how little courtesy the lad offered the man doing his job.
If my Dad got that crap off someone i would hope a ‘big man’ sorted something out. You can’t just sit there sometimes when there is a numpty being a numpty.
Ignore the ticket thing and it is a lot clearer. One man sticking up for another cause the rest of the coach was too scared to.
RealManFree MemberI believe the big guy felt that an old man was in need of protection. This had all the hallmarks of a nasty incident about to kick off. If you think this is the same as illegal parking, oh dear.
I know right, have you seen the video? That student is sitting in that chair so threateningly like. Clearly someone was about to get glocked. That carriage is so lucky to have that fat guy there to throw the kid onto his face, I can only imagine the terror that would have ensued otherwise. Won’t someone please think of the children?
JunkyardFree MemberI dont think anyone disagrees that the avoider was a tool or deserved something as consequences – removal from train without injury for example.
However because he is being a tool that does not mean you have the right to assualt him.RM
Fingers crossed you survive the hell hole that is Student life….some says its worse than Iraq you knowhoraFree MemberI don’t think BTP has much choice. There was an alleged offence; there was evidence that an offence may have taken place. There was sufficient media/public interest that they couldn’t ignore it.
Arrested and charged is not the same as found guilty.
The procurator fiscal will need to decide if it is in the public interest to prosecute. Assuming they do, the court will then decide if an offence was committed. If the police don’t do the first bit then they appear to be doing the judge’s job for him.
Bullet points:
– He works in the public sector no?
– His employer may take disciplinary action based on an arrest?
– The boy is also charged. With what? Not having a train ticket? 😆 wow, scary. The bloke who was being held up with everyone else whilst a little shit swore at a man who is probably older than his Dad grabbed and threw him off the train has the potential to gain a criminal record.Nice. So in future if you do a good deed, make sure you smash any mobile phones filming you.
epicycloFull MemberI’ve seen the video. I also spent much of my younger life living around violent people in Scotland. That “youth” thought he had the upper hand and if the ticket guy had tried to remove him, I’ve no doubt he would not acted with restraint or respect for the ticket inspector’s age, ie he would have been violent. Weasels are dangerous.
The big guy acted like a man. Obviously he did not have the finesse of a trained person, but if he wanted to hurt the ticket dodger he was more than capable of doing plenty more damage than he did.
If helping preserve public order by a samaritan like that is assault, then the law needs changing.
deadlydarcyFree MemberBullet points:
They’re not bullet points hora. I’d have thought you were in recruitment for long enough to recognise bullet points. 🙂
cheers_driveFull MemberI saw nothing in what Big Man did in the video which could be seen as assualt. He did not punch the youth or persue him after he had been ejected from the train, how else to you eject someone that refuses to move?
I’m sure that the other passenger would have seen what happened off camera and the truth will come out. If the youth is found to have faked his injuries he should be charged for that too.davidrussellFree MemberNice. So in future if you do a good deed, make sure you smash any mobile phones filming you.
alternatively, just sit there and adopt the legally-correct but morally dubious high ground, tutting mildly under your breath because you (along with hundreds of passengers on one of the busiest lines in central Scotland) are inconvenienced by a single fare dodger. Never mind, Scotrail and the BTP will deal with it in record time…
TandemJeremyFree Membercheers_drive – Member
I saw nothing in what Big Man did in the video which could be seen as assualt.
Touching without consent is assault. Grabbing, shoving, certainly is an assault.
You have a defense that is was necessary for a variety of reasons but I don’t think any of them would apply
Epicyclo – there was no threat of violence from the faredodger – and like you I have lived most of my life in the big cities of Scotland and have intervened in violent situations.
ElfinsafetyFree MemberI saw nothing in what Big Man did in the video which could be seen as assualt
Then you clearly aren’t at all knowledgeable of the Law regarding Assault. I suggest reading up on such may be of educational benefit to you. And I mean this in a positive way, not trying to be rude.
horaFree MemberI kinda slipped into a rant. So a valuable lesson has been learnt if you ever see a situation in Scotland. Sit there and keep quiet.
Saying that you wouldn’t understand much thats been said.
TandemJeremyFree Memberepicyclo
If helping preserve public order by a samaritan like that is assault, then the law needs changing.
So I can use force to prevent illegal parking then? or littering? Or someone swearing on the street? or a bad driver who puts me at risk?
deadlydarcyFree MemberTouching without consent is assault.
It’s a privilege in some parts of Manchester. 😀
davidrussellFree MemberThen you clearly aren’t at all knowledgeable of the Law regarding Assault. I suggest reading up on such may be of educational benefit to you
better put that as a PSA then elfin, because i think a significant proportion of people watching that video wouldn’t have classed it as assault.
i’m not saying its correct, but the letter of the law and its application are two different things.
davidrussellFree MemberSo I can use force to prevent illegal parking then? or littering? Or someone swearing on the street? or a bad driver who puts me at risk?
yes, as long as its proportionate. if i’ve worded that badly, refer to any of the 35,000 times you’ve said it since dec 9th 🙂
RealManFree MemberI’ve seen the video. I also spent much of my younger life living around violent people in Scotland. That “youth” thought he had the upper hand and if the ticket guy had tried to remove him, I’ve no doubt he would not acted with restraint or respect for the ticket inspector’s age, ie he would have been violent. Weasels are dangerous.
Didn’t know you had the ability to read minds throw the medium of a crappy phone camera video.
I left the house at 7.30 in the morning and I’d only had my breakfast that day, and I hadn’t slept the night before because I’d been studying for an exam.
I didn’t realise until later but I thought I’d be able to explain what happened to the conductor on the train.
I was on my way home from my second exam when it happened. I’m diabetic and hadn’t eaten all day so I was just desperate to get home. I wasn’t given a chance to explain the ticket situation. The conductor just immediately said: “That’s the wrong ticket. Off!”
I didn’t even see the other guy coming. He lifted me up from behind and all I could see was chairs and the floor. He chucked me off and I landed right on my face. I tried to get back on to get my bag but I was shoved off again.
Did you get all that too?
epicycloFull MemberTandemJeremy – Member
So I can use force to prevent illegal parking then? or littering? Or someone swearing on the street? or a bad driver who puts me at risk?Crap analogy, and you know it.
binnersFull MemberThat’s what passes for foreplay around these parts Bravisimo 😉 In more civilised parts of the country, it may indeed be deemed assault!
TandemJeremyFree MemberWhy is it a crap analogy? all non violent but antisocial offenses. If force is justified in the faredodgers case why not in the cases I describe?
davidrussellFree MemberDidn’t know you had the ability to read minds throw the medium of a crappy phone camera video.
cuts both ways pal – only hindsight shows the weenuts didn’t make the first move and that was only because bigman intervened first.
also, faredodgers account after the event and his behaviour in the video dont match up either. where are these fabled tickets? why is he clearly heard saying in the video that he has no money when he’s claimed elsewhere that his money was in his bag?
horaFree MemberIt’s a privilege in some parts of Manchester
Notice the Vulcan sex-grip that Binners applied?
BoardinBobFull MemberRealMan – Member
Didn’t know you had the ability to read minds throw the medium of a crappy phone camera video.
Did you get all that too?
Get a grip.
A bullshine story concocted after a few days of planning.
The little rat deserved to be physically removed from the train and I applaud the actions of the guy that’s been charged. Hopefully all charges will be dropped against him.
user-removedFree MemberRealMan, I’m not about to get into the rights and wrongs of it (again) but have you actually seen the video? That kid had ample opportunity to explain himself, but was nothing but obstructive, rude and mouthy.
ElfinsafetyFree Memberbetter put that as a PSA then elfin, because i think a significant proportion of people watching that video wouldn’t have classed it as assault.
I think it would be of benefit to society if a significant proportion of people who don’t know the Law, actually bothered to find out what it sez, rather than interpret things as they see fit.
There’s kind of good reasons why Laws exist, you know. I think quite a few folk have lost sight of this.
Crap analogy, and you know it.
Ok then; what about, right, if you see someone stopped at some lights or otherwise moving very slowly in their vehicle, whilst speaking on a mobile telephone?
Would it be ok to physically drag them out of the vehicle in order to prevent a possible more serious crime from taking place. I mean, they could be distracted then run over a small child cos they were too busy gabbing on the ‘phone instead of driving with Due Care and Attention.
And surely, if you allow someone doing such a thing to just drive off, then you are complicit in any crime they may subsequently commit as a result of their unlawful actions?
TandemJeremyFree Memberagree user removed – the kids story does not really wash – unless the diabetic bit is true and diabetics can act oddly if hypo.
He had plenty of opportunity to explain if he wanted to. He thought he would be a smart arse and get away with it. I have no sympathy for him at all.
However being an objectionable mouthy git does not mean you can be assaulted with impunity
GlitterGaryFree MemberHe chucked me off and I landed right on my face. I tried to get back on to get my bag but I was shoved off again.
😆
stgeorgeFull MemberI suppose we should be glad he has been charged with assault – because we will eventually know who’s right on whether it was assault or not when we get the verdict in a Court of Law.
Or maybe we should direct them to this thread to decide…
epicycloFull MemberRealMan – Member
…Did you get all that too?It may even be true, but it doesn’t change what the situation looked like.
TandemJeremy – Member
…Epicyclo – there was no threat of violence from the faredodger – and like you I have lived most of my life in the big cities of Scotland and have intervened in violent situations.Any chance of violence was nipped in the bud.
You coming to the ‘Puffer this year? (Non sequitur)
cheers_driveFull MemberOK perhaps I don’t know what legally constitutes assualt, just what I consider assualt.
So every weekend bouncers assualt punters when ejecting them from bars, the ejection is a lot rougher than Big Mans and is usually on CCTV.
Or what about store security guard who runs after a shoplifter, apprehends them and then leads then back to the store by retraint. How is stealing a train fair different from stealing a bottle of whisky?binnersFull MemberHowever being an objectionable mouthy git does not mean you can be assaulted with impunity
Maybe that’s the problem? Just sayin’ like
TandemJeremyFree MemberDon’t think so Epicyclo. Not needed as support I don’t think and not entered
Any chance of violence was nipped in the bud.
Is IMO his best defense.
RealManFree Memberbut it doesn’t change what the situation looked like to me, sat at my computer watching it through a phone camera video.
Any chance of violence was nipped in the bud.
So whenever there is, in your opinion, a probability greater then zero of violence happening, it is justified to use violence to possibly prevent it from happening?
You sound like you’d hit a guy in the face for looking at you lol.
horaFree MemberDiabetic? He admitted he was pissed and slying back on home on the train.
Hes story has changed 4 times apparently.
Sadly, his Father sounds like more of a cock than him.
TandemJeremyFree Membercheers_drive – Member
OK perhaps I don’t know what legally constitutes assualt, just what I consider assualt.
So every weekend bouncers assualt punters when ejecting them from bars, the ejection is a lot rougher than Big Mans and is usually on CCTV.Usually would have the right to remove people from the premises using minimum force as I would if someone broke into my house and again usually there would have been a violent act of threat of one
Or what about store security guard who runs after a shoplifter, apprehends them and then leads then back to the store by retraint. How is stealing a train fair different from stealing a bottle of whisky?
Its about using he minimum force which must be commensurate and proportionate.
so the worse the crime the more force is justified in restraining them and the greater the risk of violence the more force is justified.
So if the faredodger had swung a punch then the big man would have been onfar better ground. If the faredodger had produced a weapon then almost anything would have been acceptable
SanchoFree Member“There’s kind of good reasons why Laws exist, you know. I think quite a few folk have lost sight of this.”
LMAO.
binnersFull MemberSo if the faredodger had swung a punch then the big man would have been onfar better ground. If the faredodger had produced a weapon then almost anything would have been acceptable
including an air strike? That would have been well cool!
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