Oh good, at last a thread that can contain speculation, conjecture, gossip, questioning, desk jockey logic, bored teenage musings, prattle and plain nosey recriminations on the state of Pro Cycling.

Perfect, keep it all in here and stop poisoning Realmans threads, ta.

It’s not just Vino that’s the problem for me. It’s the team management (including Vino), sponsors, their hiring history and their culture of ‘dealmaking’.
As someone else pointed out, if Nibali was keen to display his cleanliness, why would you go to Astana?

It’s also not that I’m 100% sure they’re doping. It’s just that I’ve lost the ability to look at a stage like that and enjoy it. I find myself thinking more about the credibility of the riders than I do enjoying the tactics.

Oh good, at last a thread that can contain speculation, conjecture, gossip, questioning, desk jockey logic, bored teenage musings, prattle and plain nosey recriminations on the state of Pro Cycling.

Can you elaborate?

No, it’s not anywhere near clean.
Any pro sport that is 90% biological ability and mental fortitude that has big money involved is likely to be bent.

Sports that require skill are less likely to benefit from doping to the same extent.
You can take as much epo as you like but it’s unlikely to make yo into a Wimbledon champion or a golden boot winner if you were only previously mediocre.

I think along the same lines as most who have commented, its rife in most sports, I’m sure they are cleaning up their act slowly but as has been said each generation gets a cheat sheet and develops a method to stay a season ahead,
I do know that when the lance Armstrong debacle hit that Rugby Union did get a warning that they were next and quite a few of the International side shrank in size,

From a personal point of view two blokes I went to school with have had their sons excel in their chosen sport, one played rugby for Northampton Saints and England in their youth development programme and when he came of age his parents were told in NO uncertain terms that the transition into a professional player would involve performance enhancing drugs, he’s now binned that idea and gone to Uni.

The other has a career in Pro cycling and rides for Team SKY,

It’s been suggested that footballers, certain tennis players and other sporting legends have been less successfull of late and now that playing field has also been levelled a bit.

I think that’s a misconception jota – I think tennis, football, etc all used EPO at the same time as cyclists did. It brought the same advantages (i.e. a doped athlete/team was able to beat non-doped).

As I recall both Wiggins and Froome in their respective win years were questioned about possible doping. Has this been done with Nibali? I’d like to see what he says.

The main bone of contention here is the definition of “clean” and the OP is simply being a bit more pragmatic than some of the sceptics.

Of course none of us can really know, but in my mind the sport does appear to have reached a tipping point where doping is the exception rather than the rule – and riders like Horner and that guy who blitzed the Tour of Turkey stick out like a sore thumb.

100% nibali’s performance on stage 13 was achievable by guys that I ride with (on their slacker Sunday rides) that don’t dope, that for me makes think that this tour isn’t the usual BS. I can’t see where there has been any show of the bad old days.

No, it’s not anywhere near clean.
Any pro sport that is 90% biological ability and mental fortitude that has big money involved is likely to be bent.

Sports that require skill are less likely to benefit from doping to the same extent.
You can take as much epo as you like but it’s unlikely to make yo into a Wimbledon champion or a golden boot winner if you were only previously mediocre

obviously you are dismissing the doping for injury recovery and fitness over the course of a tennis match/ football game doesn’t matter, EPO isn’t the only option for dopers

I’d look at the twin factors of the money involved and the testing regime in any sport to decide how likely it is happening in any sport/ country

Heart = Yes

Head = No

nibali’s performance on stage 13 was achievable by guys that I ride with

Have you considered explaining to them that they could have a career in pro cycling? Or are your Sunday rides with a bunch of dopers?

Have you considered explaining to them that they could have a career in pro cycling?

They do ride somewhat professionally, but not proteam. But they don’t get paid nearly as much as the guys that you see in the tour! A couple of them work in bike shops to supplement their income.

The saddest thing about all of it- including Lance, is that these guys are still incredible athletes carrying out super-human feats. The volume of miles they’re putting in both in comp and in training is mind boggling.

It’s too easy for us to pass judgement. Imagine reaching the pinicle of your chosen profession and discovering that all the guys at the top have an edge on you- you either copy them or resign yourself to mediocrity.
I’m not condoning cheating but I think the riders (Lance excluded this time) were in the most part victims.

I don’t know enough about the current crop to comment but it’s fair to assume the rules will be being pushed to the absolute limit.

I say let them dope! Imagine the spectacle of 200 vein-popping Mr Muscles roaring up The Alps at 20mph 😀

I think cycling is clean these days, the difference between it and other sports is that they publicly admonish any cheats. They actively find cheats, with small traces of banned substances. How many other sports can you say the same of. Football, when do you hear of a drug cheat? How many thousands play it professionally and there is hardly ever a player found cheating. I read that Tottenham used blood spinning techniques for recovery under Villas-Boas. How true that is I do not know, but interesting.

For me, cycling is the ultimate endurance sport but there will always be cheats. I find it refreshing that cycling actively seeks the cheats out and shames them.

So we think Nibali is clean then? Even though he had the edge over at least two proven dopers.

Always sceptical but no way I’m letting it ruin my enjoyment now, if they get popped later then it’s later.

I don’t see Nibali’s performance yesterday as anything but credible, he’s always had an incredible poker face (even when he’s getting dropped, go watch last years Vuelta) and it wasn’t like he was smashing in 30-40 second out of the saddle attacks over and over, it was a steady diesel up and just rode ’em off his wheel. Go and watch a few races, every single solo racer I’ve ever seen win manages to compose themselves for the line, it’s all part of the game.

Can you elaborate?

Look at the uk anti doping link I posted, Rugby has a massive doping problem but it’s always cycling that gets picked as an example of doping in sport. Unfortunately the culture of lance Armstrong has left a bad smell around cycling that while it was deserved it is very different now with the blood passport and out of competition testing, most other sports are way behind in this respect.

Even though he had the edge over at least two proven dopers.

No arguing with logic like that is there so if you beat a proven doper you must be on dope FACT.

Usain Bolt should be very nervous as he beats loads and his sport is full of cheats…tbh he always looked relaxed as well and wins with ease so he must be guilty as well then 🙄

hey junkyard, see this “?” it’s what you put at the end of a sentence if it’s a question.

“So we think Nibali is clean then? Even though he had the edge over at least two proven dopers.”

The above was my complete post just in case you missed the whole thing.
I’ll take from your post that you consider him clean.

I quoted your statement [ not your question]which appears to suggest you are doubtful he is clean, are you ?

Junky,

I’m not sure but I’d like him to be, also the proven guilty to be clean now. I have no doubt there are cheaters (there always will be) in the race but hope it ain’t any of the big hitters.

Have not trusted Valverde since his bust (no real reason) though for some reason think Contador may now be clean, am prepared to admit to being some what delusional. I’d wanted Armstrong to clean but gave up on that thought a couple of wins in, now look at all the top riders and start with the negative thoughts. I do tend to give credence to those that will say they are clean (yes I know Armstrong did that).

suppose am just a little fed up that I have to keep explaining to my non cycling friends that everyone is not on the juice and get proven wrong.

Sorry to ramble.

I share your views we hope but then even the most optimistic struggle with Horner for example- I struggle to think he was clean given the results before , his age and his previous team mates.

I also think Bertie is clean these days but I was massively disappointed that he doped and he is certainly not as dominant as before.

i think the big hitters these days [ and wiggo and cadel] are clean.

Nibali will have won all three and I think he is just a great cyclist [ helped by the absence of the main contenders

I agree re Valverde

Pro sport clean – what an odd question?

So what about Rafael Mijka? He was in the break all day and still won. Is he doping?

Always suspected Bolt myself – he has the quickest time of all time and the next 9 have all been busted for drugs – seems a bit odd to me.

Nadal was another who stuck out, rather too good at recovering for my liking, almost as if he had a bag of blood before the next match, interesting how susceptible to injuries he has become.

i must confess I hope Nibali isn’t doping but his day in day out smashing of the opposition does call that into question.

Pro sport clean – what an odd question?

Indeed it would be, if anyone had asked it 🙄

Well no-one has been caught this tour so it must be !

Having watched yesterdays stage the doubts are building for me on Nibali. I’d like to see him put on the spot at a press conference as Wiggins, Froome or even Armstrong was. I’d like to see how he deals with it.

Nibali has been asked about doping in his press conferences for the past week. This has included questions about his alleged — but proven to be false — connections to Michele Ferrari. I’m not sure if you would count that as being “put on the spot” but the questions are there. For what it’s worth he deals with it (in Italian) at length and very well. The Cycling Podcast have talked about this a couple of times.

Watts per Kilo is interesting way of looking at how they perform at the moment but it really only tells us that they aren’t putting out the power of the LA / Pantani days. It doesn’t tells us if they are clean & I would also hazard a guess that if they are using then they will be doing everything possible to stay away from those high numbers. I think we have to remember that PED aren’t simply effecting your performance on the day but also how you recover from it If Nibali wins that TDF without one chink in his armour then I would seriously have my doubts.

Racing up alpine climbs with your mouth almost closed doesn’t help either 🙂

Nibali’s competition crashed out. He may or may not be a doper but i won’t read anything suspicious into it if he comfortably wins the tour.

Got any links to his interviews/press conferences please. Not seen him being interviewed other than a brief one on ITV4 at a stage end.

Usain Bolt should be very nervous as he beats loads and his sport is full of cheats

He certainly should be yes!

You do know he won the Vueleta and the Giro as well. Basically he is one of the best climbers in the world and one of the best cyclists

On this, it’s also worth noting that he placed well in the junior world TT championships whilst still amateur and he’s been placing top ten and higher in races since he turned pro at the age of 20. He’s not just seen a recent surge in form, and his grand tour wins have all been in years where he’s clearly targeted them.

Got any links to his interviews/press conferences please. Not seen him being interviewed other than a brief one on ITV4 at a stage end.

Listen to The Cycling Podcast. They have discussed it a lot.

The reason you probably haven’t seen it reported much is a) Nibali’s perfromance is much less remarkable than Froome’s last year, b) Nibali’s interviews are all in Italian so don’t make pithly soundbites on UK television c) He has dealt with all the questions in a very sensible and open way and has been willing to discuss it d) The Armstrong story hasn’t just broken.

Daniel Freibe who is a jounalist on the Cycling Podcast speaks fluent Italian and has therefore picked up on this and reported back.

Looking at Stage 10 which he “dominated”, he came in 15 secs ahead of 2nd place and 20 secs ahead of 3rd and 4th after 4.5 hours of racing. That’s less than .1% faster than his rivals. His win on stage 13 was even closer.

Both Valverde and Contador have both stated that this year they were climbing faster than before their bans (note: they refuse to acknowlegde they cheated and thats why they were banned, just pre/post ban, not “now I’ve stopped cheating”)

But is there any evidence this is actually true? I.e. do any of Contadors recent performamces even come close to his speed on the climb to Verbier, because if they do then that opens up some very sizeable questions, but I suspect he may feel faster but is actually faster.

Graph of shame: TdF climbing records

I don’t like graphs like that – they look to simplify something that is influenced by a far greater number of factors than just drugs. For example, Contadors Verbier climb was done the day after a flat stage and the day before his rest day – he arguably buried himself in that climb (it’s worth noting that wiggins was only a minute behind). Whereas Pantani’s Alpe D’Huez climb in 1995 was done the day after a big mountain day where he should arguably have been knackered as one of the youngest riders in that tour.

I’m not saying it’s not an interesting graph, & I would suggest that the author has carefully selected who he/she has included based on a personal axe to grind (as mentioned Wiggins was only a minute behind so I’m guessing he should’ve also been included) it’s just no more than food for thought than outright proof of anyone doping (I know they did/do but seriously, there’s more to winning a race).

no. I’m not watching this charade any more.