been looking at old threads on this subject. ok, theres plenty that just mix juice/water/bit of salt, but for those that try to get a bit closer to ‘the real thing’ it seems that a maltodextrin/fructose combo is used, some even adding a bit of unflavoured whey for that high5 4:1 effect.

just priced the malto/fruc combo up at myprotein, 1kg bag of each is a tenner. add a bit for some whey and your starting to approach the £16 for 1.6kg of high5. ok its still cheaper and its 2kg vs 1,6, but i was thinking homebrew would be waaaay cheaper.

are my maths way out, or have i got that about right? to me it seems to make more sense to pay a bit more and get your bodies requirements exactly spot on?

I do home brew it’s way cheaper fructose from sainsbury, corn starch, electrolyte powder and a bit of protein powder.

I buy a 5 kg bag of maltodextrin from Myprotein, add two fingers depth and half a tab of electrolyte to each bottle. Works for me and it’s affordable.

I tried this a few years ago after Bonking on a Peaks loop that was a Peak or two too far, it was a bit of a faff for me getting together what I needed, driving around to supermarket / health shop etc.
The mess I made just added to the pre ride admin that has already consumed a good chunk of of my pre ride meditation / half asleep mode that I seem to enter into. So for me it was easier to just buy the High5 4:1 tub. That way I could concentrate on Not forgetting SPD shoes, helmet and bolt thro rear axle etc.

Not that I ever have

Just buy a big bag of maltodextrin for £7 online. It’s so cheap that the squash I flavour it with costs more. It’s fine for most purposes. Add some nuun if it’s hot or fructose if you fancy going high tech. That’s cheap too I think, don’t diabetics use it?

Protein is the expensive bit,not sure it makes any difference if you aren’t on some kind of super epic does it?

I dunno, as for making a difference I mean, I did a 25 miler yesterday all off road, single track woods forest and old quarry, not too difficult but hard going in the sticky mud,,tyres were well caked up so much that my Marsh Guard had fashioned my front tyre into what looked like a potters wheel. Anyway I got back and was starving but immediately got a headache which lasted until I went to bed.

I don’t seem to get head ache if I ride with some proper energy drink. I only started using the stuff a few years ago but it seems to aid my recovery as much as it does for the ride itself. My line of thought was that some one who worked in Sports Nutrition must have had a better idea of what add ins I needed more than I do, and wasn’t there something in the Nuun tabs that were supposed to bad for you.

Define “proper”. Almost all energy drinks are simply maltodextrin and electrolytes. A few have fructose or protein. And yes, it will help with headaches and recovery, yes carbs will.help with that. Carbs are the main active ingredient of these things which is what the malto is.

I used to use bought powders and always struggled on long rides. This year I ditched them. Now eat proper food and water. I can go further and feel loads better during and after.

Why do people still think they need to add salt?

.

Isn’t Salt one of the minerals that you are trying to replace in the Energy drink? Or Electrolyte “Ion”

I eat proper food. I just find that when I’ve been at it for about 70 ~ 80 mins the proper food that’s been consumed has gone. And on a 4 ~ 6 hour ride an energy giving sports drink like High5 helps me sip it and not gulp,

And by proper I mean weighed out, rationed. A proportion of X, Y, Z nixed in the correct quantity “Hopefully’ by a reputable company who have done some research.

Define “proper”. Almost all energy drinks are simply maltodextrin and electrolytes.

I’d agree with this, plus some added marketing. I’d say you are better off making homebrew as you can tailor the proportions exactly to your needs, as well as giving you a better idea of what you are chucking into your body 🙂

Yes, electrolytes is another word for a substance that disassociates in water into ions, and is thus able to carry an electric current. Salt disassociates completely in water into sodium(+) and chloride(-) ions. Because salt is what you lose when you sweat, this is what you usually find in energy drinks.

My home made energy drink is 3-4 spoonfuls of glucose in a bottle of water…and sometimes 1/2 a tab of electrolyte for flavour !!

I add THIS to my water using this to measure.
A 500g bag lasts me a year or two.

You can buy maltodextrin much cheaper than that – 5kg £12. Here
http://www.bulkpowders.co.uk/maltodextrin.html?dpc=BULK5&msg=New%20customer?%20Get%20£5%20off%20Maltodextrin%20on%20your%20first%20order%20over%20£10&gclid=CLnW7Ma538cCFRQTGwod9csDAg

I used to mix maltodextrin with a bit of salt and cheap supermarket apple juice for the fructose.

Riding just a tiny little bit less hard allows you to ride much longer on your own (fat) resources. Also, less likely to give you CHD in older age. Wish I’d known this earlier…

I don’t use energy drinks at all, just plain water. Drinking sweet stuff all day long does my head in and it’s bad for your teeth. I use energy bars or flap jack and if I anticipate sweating a lot, I put electrolyte tablets in my water.
For a full day out mountain biking (not a race) we usually take butties and fruit as well.

‘Salt’ is added to sports drinks to make them isotonic, not to replace lost electrolytes – unless doing prolonged exercise ( > 2hrs) in very hot conditions electrolyte loss is not going to be a problem.
Performance drops off from losing about 2% body weight as sweat, heat exhaustion kicks in at about 5% and you collapse at about 10% loss.
Energy wise the textbook 70kg male has roughly 90g of glycogen in the liver and 400g in the muscles, hard exercise uses about 3-5g per minute – so 2hrs max.
As a rule of thumb, eat before you have to and drink water, except for prolonged rides when you might need electrolytes – the salts in normal food or sports snacks should be enough to keep you balanced.
Racing, hard training or endurance riding is obviously a step or two up, and will need more individually tailored eating/drinking plans….

I add THIS to my water using this to measure.
A 500g bag lasts me a year or two.

Ive just calculated that a £9 250g bag is the equivelent of 312 high5 tabs 😯 Thats electrolytes though, no energy. A bag of 100 serving Maltodextrin is £13. Is his all I need to make an energy drink?

A 46 serving tub of High5 is £22 and the carb content is the same as the above per serving.

Wow I’ve learned something today.

The My Protein electrolyte powder only gives the info for sodium and chloride content, so you could assume the other listed ingredients are either insignificantly low – in which case it’s just table salt, or uncontrolled – in which case it’s potentially dangerous, particularly for magnesium which has little headroom between rda (about 400mg/day) and toxic levels (about 750mg/day)
Surprised the ingredients are so poorly listed, MP are usually ok for that

Is his all I need to make an energy drink?

Essentially yes. As above, electrolytes optional, fructose optional, protein optional. Those things are subject to a bit of debate, but carbohydrate isn’t. Plain maltodextrin and squash is all I use for normal riding or recovery, if I’m taking anything.

I find something like Torq recovery to be fantastic, but it’s so sodding expensive I don’t use it habitually any more

The My Protein electrolyte powder only gives the info for sodium and chloride content, so you could assume the other listed ingredients are either insignificantly low – in which case it’s just table salt, or uncontrolled – in which case it’s potentially dangerous, particularly for magnesium which has little headroom between rda (about 400mg/day) and toxic levels (about 750mg/day)
Surprised the ingredients are so poorly listed, MP are usually ok for that

It does say though – referring to a 500ml dose – not to use more than 2 doses a day. Well thats only 2 500ml bottles of course, not enough for some rides, i went through 6 750’s og High5 in 12hr race, 3 of which had tabs added also.

You don’t need electrolytes in your energy drink. We consume an excess of salt in our diets and the only reason sweat is salty is because that is the body’s main way of getting rid of the excess.

You certainly don’t need to replace what you have lost in sweat because even in extreme cases of deprivation, the body will stop excreting the excess and reserve what it needs for normal bodily functions. It is also a myth that salt deprevation leads to cramp but obviously companies like High 5 who want to sell you their product will tell you otherwise so we buy into it as a prophylactic because we can’t risk the alternative can we?

Some people use Zero tabs because they like the flavour it gives the drink and that’s fine, just don’t think it is doing anything more to boost your performance. If anything it is making your body work slightly harder to get rid of the excess salts and minerals you have consumed that the body doesn’t need.

I use MyProtein maltodextrin and include their impact whey protein in a 4:1 ratio for longer rides as this helps prevent the muscles metabolising protein on more arduous rides. It does give the drink a creamy texture though which takes a bit of getting used to. I usually flavour my drink with a squash like Vimto or orange squash if I am not using the protein powder.

There is lots of research and references for this stuff on the web, especially about electrolytes and muscle cramps.

Gotta say I think it can be done naturally if you think about it properly (getting right combination of food groups in body) – I’ve been riding up to six hours straight (on MTB) this year and if I eat well before hand (a considered bfast such as porrige and a 3 egg omelette and then pre ride snack and hydration), drink plenty of water en route and eat my homemade energy bars every 30mins..followed by eating properly afterwards e.g Turkey baguette, its fine. I’ve had no problems so far, and if anything I’ve felt far stronger than when I used to consume energy products…

There’s also a lot of stuff on the Internet about sodium loss through sweating. I don’t normally use electrolytes, but, for example, I recently did a 90-mile hilly road ride in the south of France in temperatures in the high 30s and I was encrusted with sweat – I use electrolytes for rides like that.

thanks for the comments, interesting reading.

I use MyProtein maltodextrin and include their impact whey protein in a 4:1 ratio for longer rides as this helps prevent the muscles metabolising protein on more arduous rides. It does give the drink a creamy texture though which takes a bit of getting used to. I usually flavour my drink with a squash like Vimto or orange squash if I am not using the protein powder.

just interested why you dont use the vimto or squash if youve got protein in it. the high5 4:1 is fruit flavoured and contains protein? why do you only use the squash with maltodextrin?

You don’t need electrolytes in your energy drink. We consume an excess of salt in our diets

Electrolytes contain more than sodium. Read the recent thread about cycling and bone density.

Gotta say I think it can be done naturally

It’s just carbohydrate, not some.kind of fringe woo woo magic powder. You might as well eat jacket spuds, but the energy drink is simply easier.

I did an 80 miler a while back and took real food including welshcakes which I can usually eat like crisps. Gave me indigestion on the ride though and weren’t as effective as the energy drink usually is.

Molgrips – energy drinks are the biking equivalent of fast food vs whole food so it just depends on your outlook. Not surprised welshcakes gave you indigestion if that was your energy bar and spuds wouldn’t help you either. You need to replicate the right ratio of carb, protein etc for it to work….

I’ve experimented with a few home brews over the years and I’m currently using this lot at the moment – Maltodextrin, BCCA’s (for protein) Taurine, Caffeine Tabs, Electrolytes mixed with a drop of tropical squash from Aldi. I only use this mix on BIG rides or races. It works for me and it costs peanuts

Or again, for Molgrip – it’s like putting diesel in your petrol engine, it’s all just hydrocarbons innit 🙄

just interested why you dont use the vimto or squash if youve got protein in it. the high5 4:1 is fruit flavoured and contains protein? why do you only use the squash with maltodextrin?

Sorry, maybe my post was confusing. I use Vimto most of the time (with and without protein powder) because I like the general fruity taste. I only use orange squash (for a change) if I am not using protein powder because I don’t think the citric flavour of orange goes with the creaminess that the protein powder gives. No reason other than personal taste really. You can use whatever flavouring you like.

molgrips – Member

You don’t need electrolytes in your energy drink. We consume an excess of salt in our diets

Electrolytes contain more than sodium. Read the recent thread about cycling and bone density.

And you get all those in abundance from your normal diet, unless you don’t have one of course!

I have experimented with almost every type of energy drink over the years, some of which repeatedly gave me a headache. I put that down to there being an excess of “something” in the mix which didn’t agree with me. If anyone does experience something similar using commercial brands then I would advise moving on to something else.

I have used my own mix for the last few years with absolutely no problems and 100% energy replenishment success and have used no electrolytes at all. That includes riding 9 hours in 36 degree heat in the Marmotte last year.

One of the advantages of just using just maltodextrin is that although it is high in carbohydrate, it has very little sweetness or flavour of any kind. That is why I put squash in the mix to give it a bit of flavour. That is also (partially) why the drinks manufacturers usually add fructose and/or glucose to their mixes, to actually add some sweetness. For people who can’t stomach the sweet, sicky energy drinks, you can create a high energy mix of your own using just maltodextrin and whatever flavouring suits you.

Those people who advocate using “real” food and water have probably got things pretty right. It’s just on very long road sportives it’s difficult to carry enough food for adequate energy replenishment so energy powder in the drinks bottle is more convenient for me. I can understand people who prefer to drink plain water but I usually carry a bottle of each so get the best of both worlds. I also use solid food as well to supplement the energy drink because it is nice to eat something on a ride as well.

I think people need to experiment with what works for them but I also think you need to understand what the body really needs in terms of fluid and energy replenishment on longer rides (2 hours +).

Forzafkwi – I know what you mean about longer rides and simplicity. My personal experience is endurance/long distance MTB and to make it work (wholefood and water) I’ve managed to get my energy bars to the minimum size I can – but I still have to use an Alpkit frame bag to carry them (because I didn’t want excess weight on my back). It’s taken me alot of effort and research to get it to work for me. So I totally understand if peoples choices are made primarily because of convenience and not a desire to eat wholefood.

Here are a few references that people might be interested in reading.

This is a commercial website dealing in a lot of performance energy products. I have not used any of them so cannot comment but they seem quite expensive. The information they provide about endurance sports requirements though is really useful if you get past them obviously pushing their own products. Download the “Endurance Athlete’s Guide to Success” pdf file. there is a lot of useful information in there.

http://www.hammernutritionpro.co.uk/Knowledge_ep_44-1.html

A lot of useful research and information this website on all aspects of sports science including this section on hydration and energy drinks.

Fluid, heat & thermoregulation

More on hydration and electrolytes, some of which is targeted at endurance runners but similar advice applies to cycling.

http://www.irunfar.com/2012/07/waterlogged-a-dogma-shattering-book.html
http://adventure-journal.com/2011/09/almost-everything-you-know-about-hydrating-is-wrong/

So the upshot of this excluding the real food option, and becuase I need to reorder something as I ran out of High5 Energysource today;

Its cheaper and just as good to buy a bag of Maltodextrin. I can add even cheaper electrolytes should i feel i need to?

I’d also like to know what the symptoms of overdosing on electrolytes/magnesium is, as I appear to have been dpoing just that for years. I have occasionsal symtoms of cramp, diarrehea and headache – could this be it?

Edit: Yes, those are the symptoms. Wow, I got massive cramp (unusual for me) at the recent Gorrick 12h, of which my answer was to add another H5 tab to my next drink. Whoops. I had the shits for 2 days after also.

If the answer to my two questions is yes, I can buy the above and use max 2 bottles with electolytes in to limit the intake during longer events.

Just a side note, I used a recipe from The Feed Zone cookbook to make egg and bacon ricecakes today. It adds a good dose of Soy sauce, which of course contains a fair amount of salt.

You need to replicate the right ratio of carb, protein etc for it to work….

What? No you don’t. You can digest plain carbs perfectly well on their own. Fructose or protein may help – personally I find Torq with fructose and electrolytes a bit better, but not enough to justify buying it all the time.

Plain malto might not be perfect nutrition but it is 90% as good ime.

As for electrolytes – yes, you get them from your diet, but if you sweat a lot and you are out for a long time on a hot day, I think it’s probably worth it. Depends a lot on how much you sweat.

Incidentally I don’t buy or use electrolytes generally, only for the very occasional race or long effort. I have found that at the extremes of endurace in hot sweaty weather a drink with electrolyte can really help. But of course, YMMV.

Not sure what you mean by “plain carbs” but not going to argue the point too far, but you do seem to be getting your definitions in a twist.

Kryton57 – Member

If the answer to my two questions is yes, I can buy the above and use max 2 bottles with electolytes in to limit the intake during longer events.

Yes, you’ve experienced short term magnesium poisoning, and yes you can limit electrolytes in drinks to 2 bottles or just check the composition of any bars, gels or even ‘real food’ you might be eating during the race.
But as forzafkwai has said, really consider what you are eating and drinking in some detail – gels, electrolyte drinks and energy bars are all loaded with ingredients which are not always good in large quantities.

Not sure what you mean by “plain carbs” but not going to argue the point too far, but you do seem to be getting your definitions in a twist.

Well I mean plain maltodextrin ie without protein, fructose, electrolytes and whatnot.

ok, my turn to have a go at summarizing 🙂

1. am i right then in thinking maltodextrin is just carbs, and i can add any amount to a litre of water, its just going to give a more ‘carb/calorie dense’ product, which will take some experimenting to find what agrees with me most? for arguments sake, if i really wanted i could just chew on a whole bag of it, its just carbs?
what amount would you experiment with first, is there a ‘guesstimate’? does the myprotein stuff come with a scoop, and its maybe 2 scoops to a litre?

2. no fructose powder needed then? just mix in some tesco pure orange or something, thatll do?

3. if we’re not sure about the need for salt/electrolytes. would say quarter a teaspoon per litre of drink be an acceptable amount to try?

4. whey protein. ive got plenty of that, but i think im right in understanding adding it will make the drink creamier, maybe harder to digest? so again, trial and error as to whether its palatable or not, but it would only be of benefit to use?

thanks