Based on “Meritocracy”?

Time to get away from the politics of influence and patronage?, Wealth and privelige, or ideology and dogma?

Was listening to Radio 4’s preamble to CMD’s appearance at Leveson, including the worrying testimony from Major and Blair – along the lines:

“We knew the press had to be reformed, but were to scared / too in need of their influence to do it”

Got me thinking about my own political persuassions. I was brought up to beleive in meritocracy – everyone to do the best they can within their own abilities. Not sure that any party represents this ideal any more…(if they ever did 😉 )

So what would you lot like to see?

– Return to old fashioned socialism? Hardly meritocratic – work as hard as you like – we’ll take it away and give to those who dont work to the best of their abilities…

– More Tory croneyism? * All you oiks are just there to earn money on our capital?

– Liberals(Dems) to return to their core values???

ETA – * croneyism not the sole preserve of the Tories, but possibly at it’s most blatant

The economic system needs to be regulated first to close the gap between haves and have-nots. That is the most significant political change we need; pretty much everything else is just pissing into the wind.

Is it not all part of the same thing?

Didn’t Belgium manage without a government for about a year. I fancy having a crack at that

Ideology is dead now anyway. Its all totally discredited. I mean – what is the point of Ed Milliband? And Cameron and his ilk might as well have been parachuted in from 1654 for the interests they represent.

So lets try something new. Instead of this piecemeal privatisation by the back door, that the Tories are presently engaged in, why not hand over the running of the country – the lot – everything – to Tesco. That way they can just worry about the logistics and delivery. Which they seem quite good at

Well no, judging by the fact their sales have fallen by 1.4%…

logistics and delivery and profiteering. Which they seem quite good at

Based on “Meritocracy”?

Presumably this would have to include a 100% inheritance tax?

In which case you’d kill farming off in a generation as a lot of farmers are millionairs on paper (at £5k+ per acer plus a large house and barn(conversion) in the country) yet struggle to turn a reasnoble profit from it.

In which case you’d kill farming off in a generation as a lot of farmers are millionairs on paper (at £5k+ per acer plus a large house and barn(conversion) in the country) yet struggle to turn a reasnoble profit from it.

Or land prices will fall to a level that can sustain profit in a lifetime. Property and land prices are stifling businesses especially start-ups, but no governement is willing to do anything about it because landowners have more power than non landowners. Even though failing to tackle the problem will continue to be a slow squeeze on the economy and leave us all worse off.

TINAS – In theory, yes perhaps. In reality, that approach just supports one of the above ideologies…

By “meritocracy”, I don’t really mean redistribution of wealth / property, but redistribution of opportunity

The economic system needs to be regulated first to close the gap between haves and have-nots. That is the most significant political change we need; pretty much everything else is just pissing into the wind.

This . if you accept the inequities of the capitalist system and value the pursuit of money above all else then everything “political” within it is just polishing a turd.

Can we manage a top 10 of politicians who have retained their integrity?
I’m thinking Benn and Powell.

Heseltine?
IDS
DAVE [ call me dave] Davies
Denis Skinner
Tam Dalyell???

Mainly that list is a bit tenous though

binners – Member
why not hand over the running of the country – the lot – everything – to Tesco. That way they can just worry about the logistics and delivery. Which they seem quite good at

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PSyiRXIEyc[/video]

“Their slogan changed from ‘Every Little Helps’ to ‘We Control Every Aspect of Your Lives'”

Or land prices will fall to a level that can sustain profit in a lifetime. Property and land prices are stifling businesses especially start-ups, but no governement is willing to do anything about it because landowners have more power than non landowners

So youd rather see pretty much all landholdings passed into the hands of corporations within a generation?

Corporations dont die.

Corporations dont die.

We need more research into how to kill them.

I recommend Athelete’s FTSE Cream…

yes lovely dear c+ for effort now back to the real world

We need more research into how to kill them.

😀

Our current system favours the rich to such a disgusting extent that many people have given up voting, given up any hope of things being fairer for them.

I believe only a radical restructuring away from our free ranging capitalist system would do anything about that. Obviously we need the 99% (to use the occupy lingo) to collectivise and take control of our political system. Then we can abolish the lords and the monarchy and begin restructuring society around equitable, sustainable politics.

It’s a big ask.

yes lovely dear c+ for effort now back to the real world

Why is that, then? Surely a B+??

Actually, not just trolling – genuine musings during this mornings commute.

The current economic climate, especially the € crisis, seems to have prompted some serious consideration of representation that our European neighbours want to see. For right or wrong (in terms of likely outcomes) the Greeks appear to be looking at, and desserting, their “traditional” political parties.

Of course, British apathy comes into play…

Its perfectly possible to exempt farms from inheritance taxes

Uncle Jezza – That would just lead to all the homes in Chelsea being reclassified as ‘Urban Farms’ within a week

Well they do have Bantams and a Goat.

Here’s my twopeneth… not based on any particular facts or readings but just the views of a 38 year old northener.

Although Labour promised an end to it, we still live in a boom and bust culture. We’re currently going through bust and having had 10 years of boom this will level things out. There are lots of unhappy people at the moment. Truthfully I don’t know how some people are surviving. Me & the Mrs earn pretty good wages, one mortgage, no kids or fancy cars or holidays (although we have got married this year – wasn’t fancy) and we have nothing left at the end of the month to save.

I would say the UK is the most develop country on earth with our approach to health, multiculturalism, politics etc so if anyone will lead the way it will probably be us. However I our swing between centre right and centre left political parties mean we end up with (over a 20 year period) a land that sits completely in the centre ground. This means that in the main the public gets what the public wants so no, there will be no political reform.

The closest we got was the Lib Dems at the last election, but they’ve gone and f~cked it by jumping in with the Tories…

I do think the changing world we live in – media, twitter etc will lead to a more transparent political world in the future though.

I would say the UK is the most develop country on earth with our approach to health, multiculturalism, politics etc so if anyone will lead the way it will probably be us.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

Transparency via Twitter and similar about what is going on is all very well, but it’s having the ability to enforce change on the political system that matters. At present we are well on our way to being well-informed about what they are doing to us, but powerless to stop them…

If we continue to subscribe, individually or collectively, to the notion that the sum of our worth is only as a participant in the vulgar neoliberal “free trade” market, then we’re rubber-ducked. Any party that will take us away from that has got to be worth a shot.

Zapatistas, anyone? Ya basta!

Feel free to correct me mansonsoul, where else you thinking?

ohnohesback – yeah, agreed, but surely it’s like doping… once they’ve all been caught a new breed will come through who won’t do it. We live in hope.

Time to get away from the politics of influence and patronage?, Wealth and privelige, or ideology and dogma?

A political party without ideology is about as useful as a chocolate fireguard, which explains why they don’t exist. And you are perfectly free not to vote for political parties which represent wealth and privilege.

But of course as usual people want to blame election results on “the system”, rather than how people vote. It’s so much easier to pass the buck.

Specially when you want change but are terrified of change and need the warm reassurance of no change.

So it seems to me that how things are now is perfect – people get exactly what they want whilst feeling fully justified in whining endless that they haven’t got what they want.

im not sure ive got what i want

fortunately i dont believe in god, nor it seems do either brooks, murdoch, coulson, brown or cameron, they all swore on the bible before levenson and all proceeded to lie out of their bumholes

brown it seems lied about briefing against his enemies and cameron was blatantly lying about his dealings with coulson today- how red did he go!!

we all know that politicians lie to get elected but we just seem to put up with it
& the current PM is bff with the kind of people who are happy to hack the phones of murdered schoolgirls??

id like to be governed by an AI, a nice benevolent one like in the culture novels rather than a skynet/matrix type one

rockitman, sorry that was a bit of a harsh reply, but it did give me cause for a chuckle. I would say that a look at quality of life indices would suggest that some of the Scandinavian societies are far ahead of Britain in most aspects. In terms of social equality, education, healthcare outcomes, transport and environmental awareness, Sweden, for example, is pretty good.

I feel like it’s a running joke in Britain that leftie types look to Scandinavian countries as role models, but I really do think there are many ways in which they are better off in Denmark, Sweden or Norway. That’s not to say they’re perfect places, just that they do a lot better than us.

A political party without ideology is about as useful as a chocolate fireguard

Perhaps that ideology should be “technocracy” then. The ideologies of L or R (might) start off with a few good or necessary changes, but then rapidly pursue increasingly narrow, fringe and unnecessary policies driven by dogma

The ideologies of L or R (might) start off with a few good or necessary changes, but then rapidly pursue increasingly narrow, fringe and unnecessary policies driven by dogma

There is nothing “narrow” or “fringe” about mainstream politics, which is clearly what you are referring to. And it’s only “unnecessary” if it doesn’t suit your own preference.

As usual people yarn for a political party which pleases everyone. Despite the fact that no one ever agrees on anything and we have a society which has constantly conflicting and antagonistic interests.

The irony of all this of course is that all 3 main parties strive precisely to please everyone, and the distinction between them is now blurred like never before. All 3 main parties are now basically identical ideologically. Any difference is merely cosmetic and presents itself in terms of presentation and emphasis.

There is nothing “narrow” or “fringe” about mainstream politics, which is clearly what you are referring to. And it’s only “unnecessary” if it doesn’t suit your own preference.

So the previous Tory Govt didn’t move further right and pursue incresingly narrow policies? WRT Europe, unions, privatisation?

Likewise with Labour – more tax and spend towards the end of their period in office?

only “unnecessary” if it doesn’t suit your [the electorate’s] own preference.

Shown by progressively diminished majorities (??) until finally dismissed

So the previous Tory Govt didn’t move further right and pursue incresingly narrow policies? WRT Europe, unions, privatisation?

You obviously didn’t notice that the Labour Party followed them there.

The fact is that we already have exactly what you claim we need, ie, 3 mainstream parties which have buried their differences and agree on all the fundamental issues. They really couldn’t be more alike.

But for some reason you don’t like your own medicine.

mansonsoul – yep, as I was typing it I was thinking scandanavia. I’ve been to Finland, it was very clean. Perhaps you’re right 🙂

I’ve been to Finland, it was very clean. Perhaps you’re right

Ah, Finland! The country where I quite want to be.

You obviously didn’t notice that the Labour Party followed them there.

Yes. As did Clinton in the US.

But for some reason you don’t like your own medicine.

No. Go back to my OP. I posed a question, and framed in terms of the main parties’ traditional positions on the political spectrum. As well as speculating whether the current “turbulence” (euro, Leveson, recession) were likely to spark any new directions / movements in British politics.

I suspect not, but it does appear to be happening elsewhere

Perhaps that ideology should be “technocracy” then. The ideologies of L or R (might) start off with a few good or necessary changes, but then rapidly pursue increasingly narrow, fringe and unnecessary policies driven by dogma

Technocrats are no less driven by dogma just because they try to appear boring. Putin and the World Bank leadership both consider themselves technocrats.

No. Go back to my OP. I posed a question……

Which I took to be “So what would you lot like to see?”. Personally I would like to see people voting differently. I don’t at this stage see anything fundamentally wrong with the system. Unlike individuals like binners who appear to agree with Wolfie Smith and believe that the poor oppressed people are forced to vote for politicians which they don’t approve of.