Our new (to us) house was built circa 1980, and needs total redecoration (and more) throughout. However, before we start all that, we want to get any of the ‘fundamental’, i.e. messy. jobs out of the way.

The heating went in when the house was built, so the (microbore) pipework and rads are about 35 years old. The boiler’s a bit newer, but still probably 20 years old, so is going to be replaced. The pump is probably original and quite obviously fubarred as it makes a massive racket, so it too is going to be replaced.

We’re thinking that we’ll probably replace the rads as we do each room. However, we don’t know whether we need to/should just go the whole hog and replace the pipework too before we start anything else. Obviously, that puts the cost/hassle up by quite a margin.

I know there’s some plumbers on here, what’s the opinion of the hive mind?

If you have concrete floors with pipes run through the concrete then my answer would be yes.

A colleague had to have half his ground floor excavated when old copper pipes in the concrete floor perforated in multiple places and leaked for weeks before the water reached the surface. I’d check for embedded hot/cold water and gas pipes too if they are concrete floors.

If they’re just wooden floors with joists then have a look at them but, ime, undisturbed copper pipes and joints are fairly stable.

The boiler’s a bit newer, but still probably 20 years old, so is going to be replaced

What makes you think a new boiler will be better than an old one? – an older boiler may be far superior to a modern one:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/property/advice/11365880/Do-I-need-to-replace-an-old-boiler.html

Well, given how hot the outside of it gets, and that heat should be going into the water it’ supposed to be heating, not the room it’s in, I’m guessing it’s not the most efficient

What makes you think a new boiler will be better than an old one? – an older boiler may be far superior to a modern one:

A new boiler won’t last 10 years whereas a 30 year old boiler can be kept going for decades…..

What make is your boiler?

I hate microbore – noisy and looks horrible, I’d replace with 15mm pipe.

Our house is a similar age. Given the chance and the money, we’d move out for 6 months, gut it back to bare brick and start the heating and wiring from scratch. Seems to be what a few people on the estate have started to do.

id replace the pipe work.

what make is the boiler ?

Efficiancy alone means jack shit.

lets just look at cars – folks throwing good money after bad in the quest for high mpg…..then they get stung for high repair bills when the “efficient” technology breaks.

some old boilers were full of cast shit that will last – and were made for a number of years where as alot of modern ones change design every couple of years

the key issue is – do you have one of the good ones which still have a good strong availability of spares.

If it’s a Potterton Netaheat, keep it going 78% efficient and you can still get most parts….

http://www.miketheboilerman.com/Netaheat.htm

Seconded the boiler story – we had an old cast-iron job, which was so simple to fix and could have been repaired ad infinitum if the spares had been available. We changed it for a modern condensing boiler, which is definitely more efficient but is also more sensitive and expensive to maintain because the manufacturer has latched on to planned obselescence.

My advice would be to spend all your money on insulation – pull down the ceiling and line between the joists upstairs with Kingspan then dry-line all the walls. Then consider going all electric – with proper modern insulation your heating requirement will be tiny; this is the reason why people are forecasting the disappearance of gas hot water heating altogether from modern builds.

The benefit of new ceilings and dry-lining is that you won’t spend ages trying to eradicate the previous owner’s decor; you can start afresh with clean new plaster everywhere. I’m no electrician but I guess wiring for heaters can go behind the dry-lining? Dry-lining makes a house cosy and also surprisingly quiet.

id second that, keep the old boiler analagy.

We have an Ideal Icos which are renowned for being pretty crap, however they are also damn cheap and easy to fix. A new one on the other hand, £250 for a circuit board thankyou, thats before you even get to the fault in most cases!

I was told was that old pipe work can potentially struggle with the pressures created by a newer combination boilers, so there potential for leaks once replaced and running, worth bearing in mind. That said I wouldn’t really call a house built in the 80’s old..

I was told was that old pipe work can potentially struggle with the pressures created by a newer combination boilers,

The current boiler’s not a combi and I doubt the new one (if we get a new one…) would be either as we want the option of running two showers at the same time, which I assume a combi couldn’t cope with.

That said I wouldn’t really call a house built in the 80’s old..

Well, me neither, but it is 30 years old, and we plan on beng there for at least another ten. What’s the lifespan of copper piping…?

I’d do the pipework for sure, replaced our microbore this summer and don’t lie in bed at night listening to it roar away anymore. Boiler is your choice, we replaced ours but the point about efficiency vs savings is a good one. Personally though I would rather of reclaimed the space the back boiler and hot water tank were taking up and put them to better use.

As for insulation, I wouldn’t waste time pulling down the ceiling when you can just as easily do it from above 😉 Either that or insulate the actual roof instead so you have a warm loft (though I’m guessing you’ll have tiddly factory made joists which might not be man enough for a pseudo conversion).

But yeah, get all the invasive work like plumbing, wiring, knocking down walls and such out the way before decorating and moving in. I really wish we had the time and money that would have allowed us to when we moved but hey, you take the hand you’re dealt.

Plaster shouldn’t be an issue on long stuff if it was put up properly. If, however, you have an ex-LA house like mine that was built on bonus it’ll be crumbly rubbish underneath that will need a full skim to put right. Yours will probably be some sort of plasterboard composite wall though, my folks have a plaster filled honeycomb sandwiched between sheets of gyproc in their house of similar vintage.

Fair enough on the boiler type, thought it worth mentioning, though I think you’d be surprised by what new combi’s can produce flow wise.

Pretty sure the higher capacity Worcesters can manage two showers, our 28CDI can certainly manage one.

I’m ripping all the veins and arteries and coving and skirting and parquet out of our new place..
Going to need a new boiler as extending, so this weekend I’m draining the system, and taking the old rads off the walls…
Will get new rads where I want them, which will mean new pipe work too!

In for a penny and all that..

DrP

run one electric and one off the combi

Never assume always check.

If you spec the right boiler for your water needs it will cope with 2 showers no bother.

Im fair sure my parents wb 42kw boiler could drive every outlet in the house without issue…it certainly copes with 2 showers going…..

My 28kw grant combi is only man enough for 1 but i always planned to have one electric shower for redundancy 🙂

Nothing different to suggest –

Leave the boiler.
Replace the pipes.
Insulate everything possible.

Hold on…..he hasnt told us what boiler it is…..just cause its old doesnt make it good…..could be the austin alegro of boilers for all we know…..

I don’t know what the boiler is, I can check when I get home.

Right, for those that are interested, the boiler is an Ideal Classic.

… dont replace boilers unless there bust.. but an ideal classic is a dead man walking.. the rads will be fubar. replacing them alone would make a significant practical difference.. replace the micro bore .. its the root cause of poor heat circulation.. put as much as you can in 22 and the rest in 15.. plastic is fav. insulate stuff under floorbaords..

put a combi in unless you have two bathrooms then go heat only unvented for a combi a worcester 30si ticks most boxes.. if you looove a dhower ramp it up toward 40kw

By increasintg the pipe size youre also increasing the amount of cold water you need to heat, if the heating is on and off for periods during the day, HDPE is easier to run and insulate all pipes under floors and behind stud walls, that allows pipes to keep in heat and not heat underfloor spaces, change the radiators nafd fit TRV valves.
Insulate walls fit draught excluders to doors.

Ideal classics were great boilers very little to go wrong and a cast iron heat exchanger, still quite a few about too.

Ideal Classic: check
Twenty years old: check
Cast iron jacket: check
Corroded and leaking: check

Had to replace mine two weeks ago, two bloody cold days as well. If you’ve got the cash change it, it’ll only go west when you least want it to otherwise.

Right, so, let’s assume the boiler’s going, and the concensus seems to be to replace the pipework too (sigh…). What’s a ballpark figure for doing it all then? We’re looking at:

Boiler (ideally combi, but powerful enough to run two showers at the same time)
Pump
Rads for four beds, two baths, lounge, dining room, kitchen, hall and downstairs bog.

We’ve got a friends dad who’s a retired plumber coming next week to give his opinion, closest to to the figure he says wins a prize…

£5250

How about a mains pressure boiler? We have just changed to one and its a revalation – combi-like performance, almost unlimited hot water but can run a large family home with two showers running simultaneously. I’d never go back to a combi.

There are some restrictions in place on putting a pump into a mains pressure system. Worth checking before going too far.

“can run a large family home with two showers running simultaneously. I’d never go back to a combi.”

which a modern combi would have done just fine if it had been spec’d right.

having been in rentals where the owner cheaped out on the boiler and you could barely run a look warm bath – as hot water came out a rate that meant it cooled down quicker than you could run the bath i share your frustration hence why i specced my boiler to my water needs rather than my heat needs.

I’m not too precious on the type of boiler, I just want to be able to run two showers at the same time (not too fussed about additional pumps/power showers if the flow rate from the boiler is decent), and ideally have hot water on demand (i.e. lose the tank in the airing cupboard), but that’s not a dealbreaker.

Having renewed everything myself (barring the gas connection but including the hot and cold water systems) I’d say around the £2000 mark all in.

£1100 for boiler (28CDI from Grahams including flue, Adey Magnaclean filter and Fernox treatments)
£300 for fitting and commissioning
£600 for 7 rads (Kudox), pipe (John Guest 22mm main and 15mm branches, copper tails), fixtures (Danfoss RAS-C2 thermostatic valves, draining lockshields, pipe clips) and tools (actually, just the JG pipe snip iirc)
£~40 or so for the Honeywell CM927 controller

Might be a bit above that so budget for 10%. That was all self fitted barring the boiler.

So, slight thread resurrection…

Friend’s retired plumber father’s has just visited and he says; rip it all out and start again. Move boiler and tank to loft, new vented (I think) boiler and tank system with a dual coil tank so we have the option of plugging in a solar system at some stage. New pipework and rads throughout.

Ballpark: £8k.