Whenever Aspergers/Autism comes up on this forum, there’s usually a few people who stick they’re hands up and say they’re probably on the spectrum somewhere. Me included – my Dad and brother are too…

I’ve read Simon Baron-Cohen’s book on Aspergers and he goes through all the traits in detail but never mentions introversion and whether there’s a link. I’m now reading Quiet by Susan Cain, which talks about how poorly introversion is understood. It describes my behaviours very well indeed – better than Baron-Cohen really.

Myers Briggs has me down as an introvert – which is blindingly obvious to pretty much anyone who knows me!

Has anyone else read around how well related Aspergers and Introversion are? I’m googling right now to see what I can find out. Having been ‘managed out’ of three jobs over the years without quiet knowing why or the perpetrators being able to explain why, it’s something I’d like to get a better understanding of – being introverted isn’t usually a reason to dislike people or sack them so I’m wondering if there’s more to my behaviour than just that…

I’ve only been on here a short while, so I don’t know what exactly has been discussed before.

There is often an overlap between Aspergers and introversion, amongst many other traits.

AS is on a sliding scale, or spectrum, within the sliding scale of human traits, as is the Introvert/Extrovert sliding scale. People who have AS are much more likely to be on the Introvert end of the scale too, so someone with AS is likely to be an introvert, but an Introvert does not necessarily have AS.

I think that SBC does not want to get sidetracked, with traits that are not part of diagnosis and research.

There are a number of other potential reasons for work issues, but again, often those with AS and/or Introvert tendencies are going to find these situations harder to deal with.

I think there’s a definite link, as well as the social struggles I enjoy spending a lot of time in my own little bubble. Until I learnt I was on the spectrum I thought I was just very shy, and quiet, and a bit of a recluse. Saying that though when I was very young I think I was more extroverted, but as I grew up I almost consciously reigned in those tendencies. If there was something I thought I should say or do I’d check myself or second guess myself and think I shouldn’t or I can’t be bothered. Since finding more out about myself I’ve become a bit more outgoing though.

Brooess.

I think the issue with being an introvert, or more so as it’s perceived, is that it’s seen as a negative quality. Being an extrovert is seen as a positive trait. Being dynamic, the life and soul of the party, or just being brash and alluding confidence are seen, by shallow people, as good things.

My son is on the autism spectrum, which has many overlapping traits with aspergers, although he doesn’t fall into the category to be “officially” autistic. The more I discover about it the more traits I start to tick off. Things I have struggled with all my life now seem to make sense.

A friend, although not diagnosed, has all of the traits of autism and aspergers. He’s very introverted, although get him to open up and you can’t shut him up! Especially if the subject ticks his boxes. We tend to lose hours talking nonsense. His attention to detail and his ability to remember trivial information is astounding. All prefect traits as long as they are in the right context, which he struggles with at times.

So, yes, I personally think the link is definitely there.

Social interaction = stress, as its full of this minefield of rules and elephant traps that you can upset people by saying the wrong thing, its easier to just avoid these situations – Its possibly a really utilitarian and logical response to situations that cause stress. I’ve found myself becoming a real recluse as I’ve got older

Interesting thing about aspie girls is that they seem to be more astute at camouflage & mimicking NT behaviour, the more I’m learning the more its seems that often they can to break down and understand other peoples interaction in a ‘fly on the wall’ style but can’t apply it to themselves.

Thanks for posting. I’d just written a reply that I’ve had to delete. It made me more aware of some things I already knew, but seemed different seeing them typed out. 😯

As a medical researcher, although there may be a link and it might prove interesting, I can’t say I’m entirely thrilled at the idea of medicalising introversion.

Here’s a satirical paper published in a peer reviewed paper, that should highlight exactly why I think that.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC80580/

I think the issue with being an introvert, or more so as it’s perceived, is that it’s seen as a negative quality. Being an extrovert is seen as a positive trait. Being dynamic, the life and soul of the party, or just being brash and alluding confidence are seen, by shallow people, as good things.

Which is exactly what happens when you medicalise something, besides, I can riff off a list of personality disorders for a tonne of the outgoing types I know.

Tbh I’ve always seen extroverts as people who are simulating or forcing their behaviour. Trying to put on a face/farcade.

I know one bloke who is VERY loud in a group, takes the mick etc yet in 1-1, 1-2 is a great bloke. I talk too much but love silence too.

Tend to agree though it’s difficult to read conditions into everything. I’d consider myself at manageable point on the AS, our son is a good bit further along it. Introversion or at least the preference to deal with folk 1:1 or 1:2 is a common trait.

Sorry, but these are not the same, those of you who feel you and/or with children on the spectrum, please do some more research.

@ me, neilwheel? If you’re saying introversion and limited social interaction on a 1:few basis are not the same I’d agree but what I’d maybe consider social agoraphobia is a decent marker?

Introversion is a feature sometimes associated with Asperger’s, but there are many, many other features, some related to social interaction, others completely unrelated. On its own, and to a mild degree, it’s just part of your personality. You usually need a combination of different disorders and features to start moving you into what might be considered the ‘abnormal’ part of the asperger’s or autistic spectrum.

My lad has a few of them, such as occasional tics, over-sensitivity to certain tastes and sensations, being prone to tantrums etc, but looking at the overall picture – he’s not bad at forming social relationships and is functioning well in a school environment – I’m prepared to accept that he is short of a threshold where I should be getting worried.

The OP hasn’t really said how his introversion affects his day-to-day working, but unless he’s fallen into a career where extroversion is prized (marketing? sales?), then there shouldn’t be any reason why that on its own is enough to turn folk against him.

kcal – Not you specifically, I’m trying to promote better understanding of the condition, just not doing a very good job of it.

someone with AS is likely to be an introvert, but an Introvert does not necessarily have AS.

But much better put by martinhutch, above.

I do think that using terms like “social agoraphobia” also confuse the issue further.

Martinhutch.

Exactly put in a far better way than I did / can / tried to.

agreed all round. I’m not trying to push a different agenda but maybe off on a tangent.

martinhutch, well put. thanks!

I don’t want to be a doom monger, but while the subject is on the table.

There is ongoing research that shows those with AS also have a higher incidence rate of dementia. My father, who is certainly on the AS spectrum but undiagnosed, has the rapid onset form of the disease.

If you feel the need, please also research this subject and any mitigating actions or treatments.

brooess don’t suppose any of the books you mention have any advice regarding managing or coping with introversion?
This is a second login I made to raise my own particular struggle with one particular area of life, though has so far I’ve been too shy to raise it. 😳

The OP hasn’t really said how his introversion affects his day-to-day working, but unless he’s fallen into a career where extroversion is prized (marketing? sales?), then there shouldn’t be any reason why that on its own is enough to turn folk against him.

I work in Marketing… and I’ve never felt like I fitted, in 18 years.

One obvious solution of course is to change career. Problem with that is that when I’m given the opportunity to work in my own way, people say my work is very good + I enjoy a lot of what marketing is and make a respectable income from it (not to be sniffed at under current economic circumstances)

My current solution to this is to be a contractor – being a solo operator and not part of the company structure/culture seems to mean that people don’t mind what they perceive as my oddities so long as I deliver the project (which I do). e.g. I had a perm job a few years ago which lasted a year and I still don’t know why they had such a problem with me when they threw me out. I then went back to a previous client as a contractor and lasted 3 years… with very complementary feedback all round.

brooess don’t suppose any of the books you mention have any advice regarding managing or coping with introversion?
This is a second login I made to raise my own particular struggle with one particular area of life, though has so far I’ve been too shy to raise it

Yes – get Susan Cain – Quiet, from Amazon and spend a few hours on your own reading it 😉
There’s an awesome chapter about 3/4 of the way through which suggests how you can find ways to act extravert when you need to, which is essentially find something you really believe in, and it’s much easier to find the energy to change your behaviour in those moments when you need to (and then go back and sit quietly on your own!)

Barack Obama is an introvert apparently, so it can be done

This is a good precis but you need to read the book to get the real benefit of her insights

Susan Cain TED talk

Also worth finding someone who can do Myers Briggs with you. It gives you more granular detail around your preferences. Since I did that and accepted that I’m an introvert I’ve just given up trying to be extravert and I’m much more settled for it…

I did that and accepted that I’m an introvert I’ve just given up trying to be extravert and I’m much more settled for it…

This is very, very important.

I would also recommend Myers Briggs – did it at work a few years ago and found it very helpful in understanding myself and my relationships (not just introvert/ extrvert but across all four of the key aspects)

The best part was identifying that I’m not a total weirdo for my resistance to making plans – which can cause friction when you are in a relationship with someone at the other extreme

timely:

http://thegirlwiththecurlyhair.co.uk/blog/2014/05/28/autistic-introversion-vs-autistic-extroversion/

My current solution to this is to be a contractor – being a solo operator and not part of the company

Before I even got to this line from you, this is exactly what I was thinking of posting back.

So you’re creative, hard-working, and delivering to deadline, but don’t necessarily want to have to network and form close office relationships except on your terms?

As an aside, I work in journalism. But I absolutely hate the side of the job which involves being put in a room full of potential ‘contacts’ and making small-talk to ‘network’ with them. I like it when I have a reason to talk to someone on a one to one, so I can just phone or meet them and get on with it.

My solution was to actively look for jobs where this was the day-to-day work.

FWIW I have not had a normal job for 24 years, since I was twenty.

don’t necessarily want to have to network and form close office relationships except on your terms?

As an aside, I work in journalism. But I absolutely hate the side of the job which involves being put in a room full of potential ‘contacts’ and making small-talk to ‘network’ with them. I like it when I have a reason to talk to someone on a one to one, so I can just phone or meet them and get on with it.

I have no idea which way you were argueing it, but that’s me to a T whichever it is.

Barack Obama is an introvert apparently, so it can be done

I actualy find public speeking and chairing meetings to be really easy and enjoyable, possibly as I can treat that kind of one to many commuinication as 1 to ‘homogenous group’. If there’s networking afterwards I’ll usualy go and hide.

Open plan offices stress me out.

I have no idea which way you were argueing it.

I’m clearly very good at my job. 🙂

Myers Briggs has me down as an introvert – which is blindingly obvious to pretty much anyone who knows me!

Myers Briggs is about as useful as reading the entrails of a dead goat or phrenology.

My phrenology is pretty awesome btw.

Did you make any headway Brooess?

Couldn’t find much on connection/similarity between Aspergers and Introversion – which suggests it’s not been explored much. Quiet describes my preferences much better than Baron-Cohen tho.

I finished Quiet. It’s a very reassuring read – and she’s spot on that in general introversion is not accepted as a ‘different way of being’, but as somehow ‘wrong’. I’ve been told to my face that I’m weird, told I should talk more in meetings etc – irrespective of the fact that my work is always of a high standard… Both these individuals were generally rather lacking in empathy in any case!

The best chapter for me is the one which says you should find a job you really believe in, as that gives you the motivation to act extrovert when you need to.

I’m still scared that if I take a perm job (esp in a corporate) that I’ll either wear myself out trying to act out of character or get thrown out again.

Being a contractor removes all of that as I believe in myself and as a contractor I’m working for myself rather than the corporate… it’s hard to explain how much easier it makes things but it does.

Tom – why so negative on Myers Briggs? It backed up a lot of my own insights and for what it’s worth I did it with a very good friend of mine who’s a senior HR manager – she wouldn’t have recommended it if she didn’t think it would be helpful…

I still feel that they are separate but often happen concurrently, but you can still find extroverts with AS, just not that common. In social and professional situations it is often the missed nonvocal signals and misinterpretation of what is said by someone with AS that gives other people the idea that all is not quite right.

It’s good to learn about yourself, whether you have a “disorder” or not but I also think it’s good not to hang too much on it.

Attempting to keep up a mask can be very tiring, and not always successful for me, I prefer the option of playing up strengths and hiding weaker traits, as you are doing at the moment.

I’m not sure if being a contractor is limiting in your profession, chance of promotion or career development for example, is this a problem for you?

Attempting to keep up a mask can be very tiring, and not always successful for me, I prefer the option of playing up strengths and hiding weaker traits, as you are doing at the moment.

I’m not sure if being a contractor is limiting in your profession, chance of promotion or career development for example, is this a problem for you?

Playing to strengths is working for me too. No-one’s perfect and everyone accepts that – so figure if I make the best of my insightfulness and analytical skills, people will forgive my preference for not talking too much in meetings!

Don’t care about promotion so long as I can spend the day thinking up new ideas… contracting pays better and allows me to behave outside the norms of the organisation but within my own preferences – better all round tbh

A friend, although not diagnosed, has all of the traits of autism and aspergers. He’s very introverted, although get him to open up and you can’t shut him up! Especially if the subject ticks his boxes. We tend to lose hours talking nonsense. His attention to detail and his ability to remember trivial information is astounding. All prefect traits as long as they are in the right context, which he struggles with at times.

Strangely enough my m8 pointed this out to me on Monday that he reckoned I’m undiagnosed 🙂

Saw this thread last week, but didn’t have time to reply. I can relate to many of the posts above. In jobs, I’ve often been told that I “should” be more outspoken, outgoing etc. I used to get very low, I thought there was something “wrong” with me.
These days, I don’t really give a toss. I came across this article, it really helped me get more comfortable with who I am. As did reading “Party of One” by Anneli Rufus. She’s a bit petulant compared to Susan Cain, but worth a look.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/introvert-isnt-a-dirty-word-or-a-character-flaw-to-be-overcome-9719117.html

Thanks Neil,
This comment below that story is particularly interesting

Carl Jung was one of the initial contenders of the concepts of extroverts and introverts as personality dimensions where an extrovert was someone who preferred an external world of things and people and activities, while an introvert was someone who preferred an internal world of thoughts, feelings, fantasies, dreams and so on. But eventually these words became confused with ideas like shyness and sociability, partly because introverts tend to be shy and extroverts tend to be sociable. But what Jung intended for them was to be referred to whether the ego is more often towards the persona (mask we put on when we socialize) and outer reality, or toward the collective unconscious and its archetypes (basically the individuals connections with the unconscious of his/her ancestors and so on where an individual is a sum of his/her past even before his/her birth which he/she isn’t aware of). And thus an introvert is in a better position to understand the collective unconscious thereby making him/her more mature than an extrovert. At least according to Carl Jung. :p