yes, the council can't instruct a bailif company, apply for attachment of earnngs, attachment of benefts, place a charge on the property, begin bankruptcy proceedngs or do anythng other than send letters without issuing a summons and obtaining the liability order first. Even after the summons is issued, the council would MUCH prefer to reset a payment plan directly with the liable person.
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Intimidating baliff seems to be acting illegally, what are my rights?
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Posted 2 years ago #
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Council tax may be different but with any other debt is it not a case of
1 - You don't pay
2 - They chase you for the money and you ignore them
3 - They take you to court and win
4 - You refuse to pay and after 28 days they can send the bailiffs in
So unless you missed all of those steps, it sounds very dodgy
is the same as I was thinking - is this the first you have known about a 2010/11 bill or a very late 2009/10?Posted 2 years ago # -
I seem to recall that the balif has to come on their first visit and make a note of your contents then giving you 7 days to pay the debt before returning to seize the goods. IIRC on the second visit they are allowed to use whatever means they need to use to gain access.
too much time watching daytime tv while searching for a job!!
Posted 2 years ago # -
I'd been signed off work, receiving only SSP, the council were aware of this and said that they would look into it and that I would be eligible for benefits. The council said they would let me know.
Then I got a letter from said firm, I spoke with one of their 'bailifs' a guy who said that I was going to be due benefits and he was surprised that it had got this far, I gave him my mobile number, he never called or left any messages. I then phoned them and paid the £300.00 The next I hear is this letter coming through the door and this guy being threatening today!I shall not be opening the door, all windows will be closed, I'll be calling the council, the court and perhaps the papers.
I'm astonished that he was claiming £200+ in charges and didn't want to provide any statement or offer an arrangement to pay any charges over the original sum owed.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Good amount of stuff on the web on this but I'm sure you've already seen it. I was amazed to see that once they had been in your house once, even for a pee, that they can then break in again in the future. Although as always with web stuff it is difficult to know if it is up to date with current rules.
I would put CAB top of the list to call as there does seem to be some rules on what they can charge and what they have to tell you
Posted 2 years ago # -
Alex, got your email. You shall have a reply as soon as I get chance.
Magistrates Court will refer you to the council (they have no dealngs what so ever with the bailif company), the council will pass you over to the bailif company, the bailf company will ask you "have you got the money?" and all they want to hear is "yes". Anything else is white noise.
I take no pride in how I earn one half of my living.Posted 2 years ago # -
cheers for that, can they force entry with a magistrates liability order? what about all the stuff that doesn't belong to me?
Posted 2 years ago # -
They can only gain entry by peaceful means i.e. open door or window (see small window comment in the email I've just sent). Once they've been in, they have carte blanche.
Theoretically, they can only take what's yours but they will assume it's all yours unless you can prove otherwise. They'd REALLY rather not get in to taking goods though as it's loads of hassle, unprofitable in most cases and could end up with it being Nulla Bona (see your email again).
The best bit of advice I can give you is pay him in full if you can but keep all doors and windows tightly closed. Peaceful entry is the undoing of most liable people when bailifs come calling.
Check to see if you submitted a c/tax ben claim. The council should have inhibted the account if you did but then the inhibit would only cover the days where benefit was entitled. If the amount outstanding is for a period where benefit was not entitled, you'll be knackered. C.tax is calculated and charged on a daily basis.
They can't break in but if there is an open door or window that they can get through, they can and will.Posted 2 years ago # -
My understanding was that the only people allowed on your property without your consent are the Royal Mail and people with court orders.
This is a side note to the rest of the thread but: Royal Mail don't have any special status. What actually happens is that there is an assumption that landowners give an "implied licence" (permission) for people to use their drives/ paths/ doorsteps for legitimate business. This is why posties, meter readers, doorknockers etc are not trespassers. However, the implied licence won't exist if there's something to suggest that it doesn't exist e.g. a sign that says "absolutely no entry" or something. Whatever is reasonable under the circs.There is no implied licence from the occupier to enter someone's house - but of course if you have a search warrant or a statutory right etc you don't need permission.
Posted 2 years ago # -
So any rude awakenings this morning MrN?
Posted 2 years ago # -
not yet....
Posted 2 years ago # -
The more I read of this online I think he's acting fraudulently,
I have paid the original amount outstanding of £434.43
They have never gained entry to my home nor have they ever met with me to discuss any form of repayment.
The only notice of Bailiffs attendance I have received is the one that came through yesterday which implied that I owe £351.93.
Simple math says that they are trying to recover an additional £217.93 which I must assume are their charges.
Original debt: £434.43
less payment 13th May: £301.00
26th May visit letter stated: £351.93
less payment 26th May: £134.00This leaves a "balance" of £217.93 which must be their charges?
now then...
Looking on the National Debt Helpline (Gov. source) it clearly states the following:
For a visit to your home where no entry is made and a list of goods is not made (i.e. a levy is not made)
£24.50 for a first visit
£18.00 for a second visit
No further charges for further visitswell no Levy has been made, no walking agreement has been made, I have no record of any visit apart from yesterdays one has occurred. This all seems to be very untoward and suspect no?
where on earth can these £217.03 charges have come from?
Posted 2 years ago # -
I didn't get a mail Mr Nutt, so i guess you have sorted it.
If you want to read about this , its all on the Shelter website, link below
http://england.shelter.org.uk/get_advice/paying_for_a_home/council_tax/council_tax_arrearsI'm guessing at the moment, there is no liability order and Randalls are just harassing you to pay in full.
They will continue to do this until they get the money in full including any costs they have added on, or the Council tell them you have paid.
They won't negotiate, they won't listen, they just want money, in full, now. They will try to get into your property, and they may try to take your goods.so the easiest way to deal with this is to pay the bill in full (the full liability, not with additional fees) direct to the Council, or contact the Council to discuss a repayment plan and request they call off Randalls. but tbh if Randalls have been called, this suggests you have not paid what you owe and the Council have called Randalls as you have not paid what you owe...
Posted 2 years ago # -
posted after yours. Mr Nutt, if you have paid the full liability, then you do not owe Randalls anything.
I would suggest you call the Council ASAP Even call their out of hours number.
like i've said Randalls will keep trying to recover the money until the Council tell them to stop, or you give them money
if you have paid the bill in full to the council, you do not owe any further money. and Raqndalls are harassing youPosted 2 years ago # -
Hi Steve, sorry Its not Randalls its Chandlers Limited, I appear to have paid the Liability of £434.43 but I just don't understand where this additional £217.03 could have come from?!? I paid Chandlers Ltd on their automated payment line I wish I'd paid the council direct!!
Posted 2 years ago # -
chandlers, randalls, they are all the same!
So if you have paid the full Ctax liability to the Council, then you are not liable for anything further, unless its court costs (which it isn't)
you really need to call the Council. it wouldn't be unheard of, for someone to have paid a debt in full, and the bailiffs not be informed.
alternatively, the bailiffs may be trying it on. Tell them to take the debt to court, they won't win.Posted 2 years ago # -
Alex (& Steve Austin)
He's almost certainly not acting fraudelently and there very definitely WILL be a liabilty order. They can send it to bailifs or carry out any other recovery without the L/O from the magistrates.
If the years charge which has been passed on the bailifs (I'm guessing previous year(s) as we've only just completed our first summons run for 2010 - court date 10/06/2010 - we have just over 1500 accounts having L/O's granted on that day) has been paid in full BEFORE the bailif company made contact, the council are obliged to recall it and the bailif company have no costs incurred to recover.
If you've paid directly to the council AFTER the bailif company have made contact. they will still chase you for fee's.
I have to go to work now....yes, to the Recovery/Bailif dept. Stockport Council.Posted 2 years ago # -
so they can chase me for the fees? but how can the fees be £217.03 when they've only visited once to put a Notice of attendance through my door?
surely the maximum they can persue is:
For a visit to your home where no entry is made and a list of goods is not made (i.e. a levy is not made)
£24.50 for a first visit
£18.00 for a second visit
No further charges for further visitsthat would be the sum total of: £42.50
where could they get this £217.03 from?!? it doesn't make sense!!
I've paid Chandlers £434.43, they have never made a 'Levy' or listed my items etc, I just don't get it!
Posted 2 years ago # -
Moral of the story? Would have been less hassle just to pay your council tax on time?
Posted 2 years ago # -
Hilarious Pawsey_Bear, I do hope you've not been up all night thinking of that.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Can they not charge interest on the debt? That could add up quite quickly, firstly interest on the whole amount, then on the outstanding. But I would guess they have to tell you the rate beforehand?
(Haven't a clue by the way, just adding my two pence as to what the charges could be)
Posted 2 years ago # -
I don't know, I've never been informed of any interest charges, when I spoke to him (the bailiff) yesterday he said that they were charges for is visit, he later called back when I'd said these charges seem unreasonably high and said that he would knock off £70-80 pounds if I paid in full before 21:00hrs, when I asked for a statement or a formal breakdown of these costs he said he couldn't give it to me as it was "for his eyes only". He also went on to imply that it "sounds like there will be a breach of the peace then" when I said "if you return tomorrow I would want the police to be in attendance", he then said "sleep well and I'll see you in the morning" in a very menacing tone.
I get the impression that his intention was that to cause me as much distress as possible, well he's succeeded in that!
Posted 2 years ago # -
They are a private bailif company, not county court bailifs. They have to go to the county court to be assesed as 'fit and proper' persons to be bailifs and get the court seal on their license before they can be employed by the commercial bailif company.
The company then set their fee's per letter, visit etc.
Dukes and Marstons bailifs charge £125:00 per visit (per bailif) and £150 if they bring a van. It is rare that they will take goods (see previous post on here and email to you "Nulla Bona") but if they do, that visit alone is £150 per person (2 people) and £150 for the van. £450.
One of out bailif company's is based on Merseyside, we're in Cheshire. They wouldn;t even submit tender for the work if they could only charge county court bailif fees.
The council(s) are obliged to ensure that the bailifs they put under contract keep their fees reasonable. I suspect the bailfs would like to charge a whole heap more.
He does however have to give you evidence of how the costs have mounted up.
One other thing you can do is contact the council and ask them for dates of when the initial bill was issued and and when the reminder(s) and summons was sent. They have to prove issue but not receipt ALTHOUGH I am aware that we **sometimes** reset recovery back to reminder stage from summons if somebody kicks up a real fuss. I believe there is yet to be a test case on whether proof of issue and NOT receipt is valid for recovery action. It's an area that councils don't want pushed as if it's ruled proof of receipt is required, that will mean recorded delivery for summons notices and a big increase in costs. That means higher council tax, more people going in to recovery....not really much help to you Mr Nutt but you never know.
I'm now officially late for work.
PS. No, they (council or bailif) can't apply interest to council tax debt.Posted 2 years ago # -
Check with the CAB. One of the links I read said that they have to provide a breakdown of costs when asked (passed through the letterbox, don't open the door), BUT as always this is the internet - check with real people
Posted 2 years ago # -
I think the general advice here is to disregard anything that contradicts Mr Monksie
Posted 2 years ago # -
I think it just shows that the whole system is based on an asumption of avoidence (which I have no doubt does happen), rather than the fact that many people can be in hardships or that the system can make mistakes.
I think the whole system is morrally corrupt and frequently targets the most vulnerable.
It is also this kind of actions by the mechanisms of government that contributes to the createan of the "broken socioty" that is much publicised. It is this kind of treatment that leads people to say "fork them if thats how I get treated I will take what I can from now on".Posted 2 years ago # -
I think it just shows that the whole system is based on an asumption of avoidence
Actually, I think it's the assumption that if you don't contact the council that you are avoiding it.
I don;t know the specific circumstances but I'm sure most councils will accept a 'I'll give you what I can - how about 'x' per month?' it's when there's no communication at all fromt he person owing money that the system just chugs along to the point it has.
And as above - I think private bailiffs can charge pretty much what they like...
Posted 2 years ago # -
Whether he can charge 20 quid for a visit or £150 - he's not actually made a visit yet has he? So what are the charges for?
Posted 2 years ago # -
Actually, I think it's the assumption that if you don't contact the council that you are avoiding it.
See my previous post. IME council’s are disorganised inefficient animals which make wholesale mistakes and cock ups, but will never admit liability and would rather turn their customers into victims in order to cover up. I know the majority of the population will think this is nonsense, but a significant minority have felt the effects of the stupidity and bureaucracy of the "the state", and the quite horrendous impact it can have on your life.
Posted 2 years ago # -
ps. MrNutt, if you can lay your hands on a muckspreader, I would pay the council a visit.
Posted 2 years ago # -
muckspreader? I'm feeling more blowtorch inclined!
well still not a knock at the door, is this usual procedure? I'm going to call them...
Posted 2 years ago # -
not read all this, but ill chip in with my experiences,
same position once, didnt pay, went to court and bailiffs
i paid the council via cheque
bailiff added on £200 as i didnt pay him
i went to the local CAB office
they rang the bailiff companyall sorted, never heard from them again
Posted 2 years ago # -
The council here are pretty reasonable TBF.
Many years ago I was self employed and waiting for money to come in I waited and waited in the mean time I omitted to Pat my C/Tax they sent the letters etc etc When I got the final reminder I rang them they let me pay a nominal sum 20 quid of something as a gesture........and I payed the arrears in full when I got paid.
They will help you if you ring them......Mr Nutt you need to contact the council asap by phone and follow it up in writing.
Posted 2 years ago # -
well I've just spoken to the Bailiff (on phone) I asked for a breakdown of the charges and he told me the following:
£42.50 Standard fee when passed from Council to Bailiffs (schedule 3 & 5, regulations 14,39,45) "charges connected with distress" (I guess thats how much it costs to distress someone?!?)
then there's a Levy fee of: £26.00
and an attendance fee of £150.00 (so that was his visit yesterday)
he then said (he spoke with quite a different attitude from yesterday) "as you seem a genuine kind of bloke I'll knock off £70.00 if you make the payment today and I'll phone the van and tell them not to come around now cos they've bigger fish to fry anyway"
so I now have to pay £149.43 immediately, which I'm going to do.
so that's me completely cleaned out, my cars fecked and I can't afford to fix it which means I'm screwed for getting to work (its an hours drive each way). What a horrible shit state of affairs.
So its pay up, then I'm getting straight on to the bastards at Wat Tyler House (Swindon BC head office, oh the irony!) to sort out both this years CT and also any benefits I'm due from last year, whilst I'm at it I'm gonna get on to the Inland Revenue to see if they can give me a rebate (which I think I'm probably owed) and then looking at selling all my worldly possessions, turn into a 15 yr old female chav, get up the duff and then spend the rest of my life on the social!
GGGRRRRRRRRRRRRRHHHHHH!! *gritted teeth*
right then, where's the nearest dairy farm/oxyacetylene store!
Posted 2 years ago # -
Probably the wisest course of action fella, end of the day even if the charges seem excessive I doubt the council would be shipping off debt collection work to people who act illegally...hope you get stuff sorted!
Posted 2 years ago #
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