Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 43 total)
  • interval training – progressive workouts/ training plan
  • trickydisco
    Free Member

    Iv’e seen lots of postings about interval training and know a ton of intervals but wondering how people adjust their workouts to increase the load/ measure fitness

    i.e 1st week you’re doing 7×3 min intervals at X power (3 min recover) and then each week you are either

    Reducing the recovery time or Increasing the wattage.

    Has anyone experience of this? A friend of mine said he was tackling a 12 week progressive plan from the wattbike site that kept pushing his wattage. He’s now doing it again at a higher wattage as he’s got fitter.

    Interested to know how people track their progress or adjust workouts each week.

    it’s something i think would motivate me a lot more knowing that after x weeks I can increase intensity (by this i’m talking more about wattage as that’s easier to work with + we have wattbikes at the gym i use)

    Also is anyone doing regular tests. e.g the 3 minute aerobic text, MAP, FTP ?

    The-Swedish-Chef
    Free Member

    I’d go mad chasing seconds or watts every interval session. In fact I deliberately do not repeat sessions in each block to avoid this. And when the session is repeated its normally working something else so even then they’re not identical.

    For me its all about consistency over months.

    I do have a couple of sessions that I use to benchmark my progress/fitness but these are race like intensity and are rarely used outside of the race season.

    My FTP gets tested every 5 to 6 weeks and my plan adapted from that number.

    trickydisco
    Free Member

    Cheers Swedish Chef. So are you self testing your FTP? Just wondered if you are doing specific FTP targeting intervals (yes i know a lot of workouts can help raise FTP) and are you then regularly changing your zones?

    The-Swedish-Chef
    Free Member

    Yeah I use the TrainerRoad 8 minute test as I no longer have a power meter so testing at a ‘proper’ centre is meaningless as all I have is virtual power.

    I guess the sweet spot plans are mostly targeting FTP if that’s what your after, how I think some variety is called for otherwise it’s really easy to create a diesel engine and have zero top end.

    I’ve just done 5 weeks of sweet spot training, now it’s the Tour of Sufferlandria, then a rest week, I’ll test again and kick off the MTB plan.

    mrblobby
    Free Member

    i.e 1st week you’re doing 7×3 min intervals at X power (3 min recover) and then each week you are either

    Think there’s a lot of value in pyramid like sessions. So for example, you might get use to doing your 7×3, now try doing maybe 5×3 at the same power following a long tempo or threshold interval (or vice versa.) Depending on the racing you do and what you want to get better at you can build up more elaborate combinations of intervals.

    Also is anyone doing regular tests

    Don’t do regular testing but I do fairly frequently tweak my FTP (up and down!) I think you do enough of this sort of thing, and based on day to day sessions, you know if the value you have is realistic of the power you can sustain for an hour.

    trickydisco
    Free Member

    I’ve just done 5 weeks of sweet spot training

    Sorry for bombarding you with questions. How many workouts per week and what sort of intervals target sweetspot (workout duration and recovery?) Is is just below z4?

    bikebouy
    Free Member

    I’ve been following a training plan that I made up. I read a bit about what I should be doing interval wise then just conducted my own plan on a spreadsheet and using my Garmin and it’s “workout” facility.

    So I’ve just ramped up the intensity as I’ve gone on and as mrblobby states the pyramid so replacing 7×3’s for 9×3’s 11×3’s and in saddle power/out of saddle power and so on. Also as I don’t have a power meter I’m just increasing the length of the intensity and keeping an eye on heart rate for the rest periods. Also I have climbing intervals, I use these for improving output on cold days where long rides are out so concentrate on climbing ability, seated and out of saddle. This has made the most difference IMO for me.

    Also, I have to admit this, I’m strava KOM chasing. I know, I know 🙄 But here all I’m doing is taking segments from my local routes and trying to beat them on my Garmin, so I draw the route out on OSM, create a workout for it and then attack it. This has been very successful for me, one of the motivators I use when I’m feeling a little bored with intervals. For instance yesterday I took a 75k Roadie route of a KOM leader, traced it on OSM, created segments where he’d KOM’d then road out and attacked it. It’s been a great motivator, something to chase down. I ride alone so I’ve no one to “chase”, it’s what I do and how I like to ride so no big for me. Also, has to be said, I’ve been to some Trail Centers on the CX’er and again tried to chase down the KOM’s for them, most have been easy to beat because a CX’er is faster on loads of sections of these, clearly the downhill bits are rubbish but hey 😆

    Doing this has made one helluva difference to my riding, also I have created separate plans for both the CX’er and Roadie, so the CX’er gets offroad terrain and the Roadie doesn’t. I’ve got some great places that have become a worn groove where I’ve ridden them so often, but then there are routes I’ve created that have been long distance CX’er stuff and gone and attacked that too.

    Whats all this for ? Dunno, but I have to test and apply myself. I do have some goals which will appear when Spring comes around, I’m having a crack at the SDW record (one way) later in the year, some other Adventure X races, some Roadie stuff back in the Doli’s and Alp’s, you know that kinda thing.

    So, partly scientific, partly by feel, mostly planned.

    mrblobby
    Free Member

    Also, I have to admit this, I’m strava KOM chasing. I know, I know

    Shame on you 🙂

    trickydisco
    Free Member

    Cheers guys.

    i did a fitness test yonks ago and got my zones worked out (actually i did two – one at the start and one at the end of 6 months). I think i need to do a MAP test on the wattbike at the gym and sort out these zones again and work to those.

    I like the idea of a progressive plan as you can see how effective the intervals are. This is mainly for cross racing really.

    DanW
    Free Member

    i.e 1st week you’re doing 7×3 min intervals at X power (3 min recover) and then each week you are either reducing the recovery time or Increasing the wattage.

    Chef’s answer to your original post is spot on. One thing to have in mind is what are you trying to achieve with each session? For me this boils down to exactly the same as Chef describes which is to provide the legs with a meaningful but changing stimulus. Progressive is one way to go but constantly changes the stimulus with intervals of different lengths and combinations is great (and much less dull!).

    Try and think what you are trying to do with each set of intervals. I can’t see any value to 7x3min (3min recovery) for example. To really make the most of a 3 minute interval you need to be riding pretty damn hard and done right you’ll struggle to get 3x3min with 3 min recovery.

    Think there’s a lot of value in pyramid like sessions.

    I agree with this too. You can try all sorts of things like 6x6mins Z3 but with a 1min flat out effort at the end of every 6 minutes for example. It is all about forcing adaptations.

    Just wondered if you are doing specific FTP targeting intervals (yes i know a lot of workouts can help raise FTP)

    Intervals of every length help each other. Even pretty short intervals (assuming equal time “on” and “off”) are essentially aerobic. You can’t exclusively build 20 minute or 60 minute power for example, the body doesn’t work like that. 2×20’s at FTP are nice though 😀

    You ask about “specific FTP targeting intervals” but there isn’t such a thing. FTP is a pretty arbitrary way to measure “fitness” to scale other efforts. If you look at Monod’s critical power (curve) model you can see that you can start to estimate power at longer and shorter duration from a few known “best powers”. It is a similar idea as estimating you 60min max power from an 8 or 20 test.

    regularly changing your zones?

    20 min test every 4-6 weeks here. If you are trying to make changes then you need to know if what you are doing is working! Then reassess zones based on the test to ensure you keep giving the legs good stimulus.

    I am far from fast so take this all with a pinch of salt- the best thing you can do is progress slowly and consistently and not binge on some good riding then have too long away from the bike afterwards which is my huge downfall! 😳 Bit like a crash diet- fine for a few weeks then all the weight piles on with a slack week!

    trickydisco
    Free Member

    I can’t see any value to 7x3min (3min recovery) for example. To really make the most of a 3 minute interval you need to be riding pretty damn hard and done right you’ll struggle to get 3x3min with 3 min recovery.

    i plucked the 7×3 out out of the air tbh. I have been doing 3-4 x3min intervals i find these very hard

    You ask about “specific FTP targeting intervals” but there isn’t such a thing

    Thats why i said all kinds of training can increase your FTP. I know that some workouts will help raise your FTP better than others.

    Also.. to clarify I did 6-9 month worth of training a few years back which was coach led. i learnt a lot about my body and intervals were my bread an butter. My FTP and zones were assessed after 6 months once i did the dreaded v02 max test. Saying that I don’t remember having a progressive interval session where it changed every week. It was a mixture of short, long intervals and loads of zone 2 rides as my endurance capacity was rubbish

    The-Swedish-Chef
    Free Member

    Some good info on this thread.

    Tricky I can PM you my training schedule if you like, whether its of relevance to you is another matter.

    Training doesn’t need to be that complicated.
    2 * 20 off 5 at 90% of FTP, twice a week
    4 * 4 off 2 at 120% of FTP, once a week

    trickydisco
    Free Member

    That would be great Swedish Chef. Email in profile 🙂

    trickydisco
    Free Member

    ..also to add. I didn’t have access to a power meter last time but now i’m using the wattbikes in the gym which I think is better to see improvement

    The-Swedish-Chef
    Free Member

    Pling.

    trickydisco
    Free Member

    This week i’ve been doing 3×3 and 5×3 (which i;’m told are typical vo2max interval) The last minute is a total sufferfest. I’m doing these as long intervals are a weakness. I can’t imagine doing 2*20 on a turbo.

    Main aim is to increase my aerobic engine/capacity and then in a few months i’ll start doing the shorter intervals (which i actually prefer.. apart from tabata which is pure torture)

    Does anyone do a kitchen sink type of workout? ie. throwing them all in 10min, 5min, 3min, 1min and 30s,20,10 ?

    ot maybe that’s a bit too crazy?

    Swedish chef> which intervals do you do to get that aerobic ceiling up (FTP, v02 capacity etc) I’m mainly interested in 1 hour long cross racing where i want a very good aerobic engine with anaerobic capacity on top (doesn’t everyone 🙂

    The-Swedish-Chef
    Free Member

    6 to 8 weeks out from the cross season I personally start doing more sessions like Revolver, and Downward Spiral, so shortish intervals with roughly the same or less time in recovery.

    This is combination with specific cross training with my club which is normally based around longer intervals, say 3 * 15 on an actual cross course.

    eskay
    Full Member

    I can’t imagine doing 2*20 on a turbo.

    I have started 2*20 and I find it easier to break each 20 minute block into 5 mins, it seems to somehow help psychologically. You don’t change the way you ride over each of the 20 mins but ‘only having 3 mins left of block 1′ somehow seems better than ’18 minutes left’!!

    I have a pretty tough threshold turbo session I could email (that was devised by a coach at my club). It does have a 10 minute block in it but the rest of the efforts are shorter.

    The-Swedish-Chef
    Free Member

    Gray and Star King are the classic sessions on RrainerRoad for long FTP intervals.

    I was told to try and raise the effort to 120% of FTP for the final 3 minutes and then raise it again to 150% of FTP for the final minute to make it more VO2 centric.

    Also helps break up the repetitive nature of long intervals on a trainer.

    DanW
    Free Member

    Was that the “progressively grey” custom session Chef from the TR thread? I’ve been meaning to get in to something like this for a while a it’s top of my list for tomorrow

    The-Swedish-Chef
    Free Member

    Was that the “progressively grey” custom session Chef from the TR thread? I

    Yes it was, nice catch!

    trickydisco
    Free Member

    So i’ve been hitting the wattbike 3 times a week now and i’ve been mainly doing sweet spot training. Found this pretty hard to begin with as i’m used to doing much harder/shorter intervals. Notice that my average power is more for sweet sport training. Currently doing 3 x 10 minutes

    trickydisco
    Free Member

    i’ve now progressed onto 1×20 then 1×10 (mainly limited by time as its a lunch time workout)

    It feels like it’s working. 3 times a week at sweetspot and 3 weeks on and I can hold 20 more watts

    The-Swedish-Chef
    Free Member

    😀 Nice.

    Training smart, its the dirty secret. Well apart from AICAR, peptide, and cortisone

    trickydisco
    Free Member

    i’m still way off where i was about 4 years ago but it’s nice to know i’m improving. It’s great being able to train at lunch time on a bike with power. It’s great to see/feel improvements.

    I’m now a fan of these longer intervals. I’ll start introducing 4/5 min intervals once a week in a few weeks.

    Ramp test again next week to see how much it’s worked

    Gotama
    Free Member

    daft question tricky but what is the rest time in between your 20 and 10 minute intervals? And presumably you keep pedalling at a really low intensity rather than stopping. Newbie trying to get fitter here 😳

    trickydisco
    Free Member

    2 minutes rest. Helps break it up. It’s just easy pedaling.

    Gotama
    Free Member

    ta

    trickydisco
    Free Member

    Also he 20 minutes might be hard to start off with ( i know i couldn’t do it) I started with 5 minutes and built up to 20

    The-Swedish-Chef
    Free Member

    What % of FTP are you doing the 20 minutes at?

    It should be hard, but not crippling.

    trickydisco
    Free Member

    I’m right in the FTP zone now for the 20 minutes

    The-Swedish-Chef
    Free Member

    “right in”, as in 100% or 95, big difference in feel IMO?

    trickydisco
    Free Member

    well my FTP is estimated from MAP. i’ve seen FTP zone figure as a percentage of MAP to be in the range of 72-77%

    based on the MAP test i did nearly 4 weeks ago I am slap bang in the 72 – 77% power range for those 20 minutes (tbh.. mainly near the 75% range)

    The-Swedish-Chef
    Free Member

    Wow, that graph needed a second look, but yes, somewhere just south 100% of FTP.

    Good stuff

    trickydisco
    Free Member

    Cheers.. I think it’s because i’m relatively untrained and pretty low wattage figures that i’ve seen a good increase. I think it will be harder once i’ve retested next week.

    Do you get your FTP from an 8 minute test? Have you compared this to MAP or a 20 minute average power ?

    Gotama
    Free Member

    Also he 20 minutes might be hard to start off with ( i know i couldn’t do it) I started with 5 minutes and built up to 20

    I don’t understand a lot of the talk here but I can average 250 watts for 20 mins on a wattbike although I have no idea where that puts me in the grand scale of things. At the bottom of the pile I suspect! I really should sort my heart rate monitor out with the watbike in the gym.

    The-Swedish-Chef
    Free Member

    I use the 8 minute test for consistency, the 20 would most likely give a better result though, however as I started with that one ill keep using it.

    Planning to use the sufferfest session rubber glove on a kickr to give me something to compare it against.

    trickydisco
    Free Member

    I don’t understand a lot of the talk here but I can average 250 watts for 20 mins on a wattbike although I have no idea where that puts me in the grand scale of things. At the bottom of the pile I suspect! I really should sort my heart rate monitor out with the watbike in the gym.

    For me it’s all about metrics. How are you measuring current fitness and how do you know if the training is working.

    by doing tests every month or 2 months you can then adjust the figures

    I did a MAP test (maximal aerobic power) to determine my zones and it means I can repeat it every 4 weeks so see if my zones have changed.

    The-Swedish-Chef
    Free Member

    I can average 250 watts for 20 mins on a wattbike although I have no idea where that puts me in the grand scale of things

    If you’re a 50kg teenage girl then ring Dave B @ Sky, if you’re a 150kg man then by all means ring but maybe don’t expect a quick reply

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