I’ve noticed that car drivers are hanging back, waiting longer, and giving me a wider berth. Here are a few observations:

1) Drivers waiting behind me for a proper time to pass
2) Drivers not passing at bollards
3) Drivers not passing and then cutting me off as they turn left into a junction
4) Drivers not passing me before a roundabout, and waiting for me to negotiate it first
5) Drivers giving me a very decent amount of room when passing me

And why might this be? I think it’s because of resurfacing works. Yup. Since they resurfaced most of the route to work, and many of the roads around me, they haven’t painted any of the lines back on the road yet. Nothing else has changed, I don’t smell any worse, I’m not wearing hi-viz, my road positioning is perhaps a bit wider to keep out of the grit, but not much. Yet there is a massive, noticeable difference in the way drivers are operating around me.

I say remove all of the lines for good!

There’s been quite a bit of research on this in urban settings and it does seem to have all of the effects you mention

Yes, it would appear that having all of the decisions made for them – by providing markings, lights and signs – causes drivers to think less about what they are doing. In the absence of prompts, they are forced to think a little bit more and things generally go a bit better.

A case in point is a roundabout near where I live. When I had to negotiate this every day, it was a good couple of minutes to get through it in rush hour (and this is why I now avoid coming home this way, unless I absolutely have to). The interesting thing is, whenever the traffic lights are out of order – and the drivers have to think for themselves – the traffic flows sooooo smoothly.

This is an interesting subject as it does seem to provide an insight into human behaviour.

P.S. I wish that people would think before installing road markings/road furniture – I simply can’t imagine what they were thinking when they came up with this…
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.122302,-0.202494,3a,75y,260h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9CBTXDxaIgYyj5q70YFyYg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

I think it’s Holland (let’s face it, it’s usually Holland) have found that actually taking away the kerbs and not marking the boundary between the pedestrian bit and the road bit has a similar, positive effect on safety, and encourages thoughtful considerate sharing of space.

This isn’t always the case. There is a roundabout I use to commute. On approach it widens out from one lane to two lanes on entry. The lines wore away and the result was that 90% of the time someone would use the width of the road to overtake me and then cut in on me as we braked for the corner. They repainted the lines and all of a sudden all the overtakers remained in the outside lane.

Yep, its an area of study for transport bods – I think they call them naked roads

The traffic light thing is very interesting too. It something I’ve observed as well. When traffic lights are out “busy” junctions are no longer busy, just by letting people think for themselves.

have witnessed it from the other side here.
the main road 30/40/national speed limit was re-marked several years ago with a solid white line down each side, about 10″ from the kerb.
the idea was to make the road appear narrower and slow the cars down.
what actually happened was everyone drove faster as the ‘edge’ was clearly defined in all conditions.
some drivers even decided that the gutter was actually a cycle lane

I have an unfounded suspicion that the effect of these sorts of things is more pronounced in the short term, i.e. temporary road resurfacing or faulty lights as it becomes an anomaly for road users who are then forced to think about what they are doing. If the change was permanent I reckon it wouldn’t take too long before peoples behaviour went back to being less considerate again.

With all the CS (cycle highways) in London being ether reviewed or upgraded and or changed there is a move to remove the blue painted surface and leave just tarmac and a single white line. Certainly the CS3 that runs Tower Hill/Canary Wharf is going through this transformation.
Has to be said the blue painted surface was always a slippyfest in the rain.

I’ve done a little work in this in the past and there is no one size fits all application here, but removing lines (in conjunction with other measures) can reduce speeds and introduce uncertainty , which can be a good thing, depending on the circumstance. Similar with guard rail removal at crossings , removal of zebra crossings , one way streets etc.

Similar with guard rail removal at crossings , removal of zebra crossings , one way streets etc.

We have a zebra crossing just down the road from me, one of very few if not the only one in town. Not a busy road but very few cars make any attempt to stop!!

Old study, amongst many
Let’s just say that any/all of those suggestions would cause chaos!!
The hospital is to close with a new build already started. The access to which leaves a lot to be desired!!
There is an FB/change.gov petition going round to get the A75 upgraded to motorway given that it is the main “Euroroute” for traffic to N.I. From Gretna to Stranraer ports.
It took something like 30yrs to get the current bypass……

Around town the road markings are eroding and not being replaced/re-lined to the point where some junctions are unmarked. Most drivers still take care but there are a number who career through without a glance or care in the world 🙄

In the Marina area down here all road markings have been removed. It means that pretty much every car assumes they have right of way, regardless of where they are coming from. Its not good.

Cowley road in Oxford has had this done, along with a lot of the ‘furniture’.

Not heard about the outcome really, but I think it’s been in place a while now without comment /incident in an area with a lot of cyclists, primarily for transportation over leisure. So I assume it’s working out OK… <expects a few choice links to prove me wrong>

The current Swiss trend is to have no center line in built up areas, often with wide cycle paths on either side delineated by dashed yellow lines.

The effect is similar to what is noted above. You don’t get traffic squeezing past you whilst trying to stay on “their side of the road” and passing vehicles tend to leave more space. Additionally, people tend to drive slower since they feel that they are sharing the road rather than having a lane of their own.

We have a road near my house that illustrates the opposite of this point. The council, in their wisdom, have painted a cycle lane on each side of the road. Which is great, except the road now isn’t actually wide enough for even a normal sized car, let alone the Range Rovers and vans that frequently drive up and down it.

Before the lines were painted, vehicles overtook cyclists fairly considerately by going over the dashed centre line into the other carriageway. They now assume that there’s enough space without doing this, leading to breathtakingly close passes as the driver thinks there are effectively two lanes and they don’t have to move over. An example of when a cycle path has actually made things more dangerous for cyclists rather than less.

@legolam. that is the stero typic bad cycle lane marking creating a “us and them” spaces, neither of which are big enough. Really bad council planning there. You should write to them and try and explain the error in the application.

Good luck with that. The correct answer, rather than trying to get councils to do it properly, is to have mandatory guidelines on proper cycling infrastructure done right. Plenty of other rules they have to follow when doing roads, it really wouldn’t be terribly hard to lay down hard rules on width of such lanes.

I think you are correct but I also think is even less chance of that happening then someone taking on board commnet on the poor design.

I think it’s Holland (let’s face it, it’s usually Holland) have found that actually taking away the kerbs and not marking the boundary between the pedestrian bit and the road bit has a similar, positive effect on safety, and encourages thoughtful considerate sharing of space.

Yep, Hans Monderman is your, ahem, man. His work was covered in one of my uni modules. Interesting stuff.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Monderman

Exactly the same around my way in Aylesbury. Until the point where they repainted it all the experience was great whether in a bike or a car.

They have tried similar around my way, and it works really well.
The road has now got white lines on either side of the road for the cycle lane about 1mtr out from the curb, meaning that vehicles drive down the centre of the road.
I dont use it much and it isn’t that busy when I do, but vehicles do give more room when passing and Im sure they go a bit slower when they think they may come head on with another vehicle and then have to more over.

My commute has been into Buxton for the last few years, originally from Glossop direction but more recently over Long Hill so not massive volumes of traffic but interesting enough roads to create some entertaining situations. Speed limit on long hill is 50 but most days you get some plank who thinks everyone should be doing at least 60 at all times, invariably leading to ‘conflict’ with shit overtakes round blind corners, which for the most part come to nothing. Anyway, they resurfaced the road a year or two back so no road markings for a month or two and the standard of driving was hugely improved.

As soon as the markings were back, normal service resumed.

What the exact reason for it is I don’t know but I reckon the better markings make it feel like a ‘proper’ road to some and all common sense goes out the window.

So thats another vote for removal of markings, especially the centre line, on rural roads.

You can keep them on the dual carriageway mind…

I disagree. There is zero chance of the councils doing it properly even most of the time without central guidance. There is at least a finite chance of persuading the right people that there should be mandatory central guidance given the gradual momentum being gained. I hope I’m right!

You can tell this is a cycling forum.

Would this be the cheap resurfacing by gluing gravel chippings to the old surface?

Nothing to do with driving carefully to avoid stone chips from all the loose grit then? Just done loads of roads near me and even with the lines back, the traffic has been slower right up until the point the loose chippings have stopped pinging the underside of the car, driving is back to it’s usual ignorant standards now.

Maybe I’m just a little cynical. 🙂

So thats another vote for removal of markings, especially the centre line, on rural roads.

Any that has to get the vote for stupid statement of the year so far.

As if the 4×4 brigade need more excuses to drive in the middle of the road. Without the centre line, as a cyclist, I’d be risking the idiots that overtake badly as well as the oncoming school run parents in Range Rover Sports who now thing the whole carriageway is fair game.

Re: the centre line

I wonder if there’s a fear of crossing it so if it isn’t there then the drivers actually pull out?

I think all ministers for transport should have to cycle on the roads incognito to let them see what it’s like. Let’s add the PM to that as well. I reckon there’d soon be some changes to the law.

belugabob – Member
I simply can’t imagine what they were thinking when they came up with this…
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.122302,-0.202494,3a,75y,260h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9CBTXDxaIgYyj5q70YFyYg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

(Fixed link).

That’s hilarious.

I suspect you might find even more drivers aiming at cyclists.

er, no it isn’t, try https://goo.gl/maps/NRRMj

The one I put in links to the streetview for me.

whitestone – Member
Re: the centre line

I wonder if there’s a fear of crossing it so if it isn’t there then the drivers actually pull out?

I think it’s exactly this. Everyday I see (either from my car or bike) drivers give cyclists far too little room because they won’t cross the centre line even when there’s nothing on the other side of the road and a clear view.
When I’m riding I wave furiously at them to move further over, but it seems to make no difference.

It’s getting that the recommended 1.5m gap needs to be law. Heck, even the Americans (only some states) have a minimum distance.

It’s getting that the recommended 1.5m gap needs to be law

Surely almost impossible to police.

Yes, given that most of the existing regulations are routinely flouted but and could be used as evidence of dangerous driving such as in the flying fatman case.

Having been run over once (as a pedestrian) I’m in no rush to repeat the experience but at least there’d be grounds for prosecution.

I have an unfounded suspicion that the effect of these sorts of things is more pronounced in the short term, i.e. temporary road resurfacing or faulty lights as it becomes an anomaly for road users who are then forced to think about what they are doing.

I was wondering the same thing – if a familiar road is changed, then a driver pays more attention, but how long for?

Surely almost impossible to police.

Yes but the thinking behind it is that it at least makes drivers *think* before they overtake.

I’m against it too as I think the time and resources poured into making thousands of signs like this:

and the associated education campaign would be better spent in just building some proper infrastructure in the first place. And as you say, it’s impossible to actually police effectively – making laws that can’t realistically be enforced is the very definition of a waste of time designed to look like the powers that be are actually doing something while in reality achieving nothing.

@crazy-legs

same madness we have here in several London boroughs including Camden, where I live.

20mph blanket speed limit, borough wide, introduced 3 years ago

shortly after, local Police borough commander admitted in interview to Camden New Journal newspaper, it was not being enforced, due to lack of Police resources

can’t see that situation has gotten any better, with ongoing Police cut backs?

certainly the majority of drivers widely ignoring the 20mph limit, especially in parks like Regent’s Park where you see motorists absolutely flooring it once past cyclists

another interesting one in London is Exhibition Road, Kensington

Had all the signage and clutter removed.

I’ve ridden and walked down it a number of times, and its not a good experience

This generated more responses than I’d expected. Interesting to see that others have found similar, as has some research.

I do think that the “fear” of crossing the white line, while stupid, is real. It happens to me a lot when nothing is coming the other way. Even those that do cross only just cross it when they could actually move right out.

I do like the 3 ft campaign. Even if it isn’t policeable I think it would raise awareness.

For now I’ll stick to thinking everyones out to kill me!