A guy at a sister company I work for had an incident with one of the machines he uses yesterday and broke his finger. It was a bad break and therefore has been advised to remain off work for 4 – 6 weeks. He is a production operative and uses his hands for his job and a variety of machines.

I’ve subsequently found out that he wasn’t provided with any training to use the machine in question other than one of his colleagues advising him how to switch it on and press the buttons. He doesn’t want to go down the road of claims etc but as he will only get SSP he is worried about how he will survive financially for the next month or so. He basically just wants his salary paid for the time he is off until he returns. Do you think it is something he should discuss with his manager or leave well alone?

(Should mention that the incident didn’t happen because of his negligence, the machine he was using simply did something he wasn’t fore-warned about or advised on how it could potentially be avoided)

Even if he just wants his salary, it sounds like he will have to claim for it, formally or not.

Has he been there for a year?

I would be expecting a forthcoming prosecution by the HSE for the company. I would think that they would be wise to do all they can for him.

He’s only been there 3 months. He’s had very little in the way of any training etc. My initial response to him was make a claim. His hand is in a real mess. Cut up and bruised with a very serious break. The Assistant Supervisor (Other senior staff were on holiday) was completely uninterested and unsympathetic to make matters worse.

It is a small company with a total staff of about 20 including admin and factory workers.

an accident is something that is neither forseeable or preventable.
this incident was forseeable and preventable if what you say is correct re the training. he wold be wise to, at the very least, check with a reputable lawyer and not one of these shyster injury lawyer firms you see on TV

First thing he should do is call his Manager to confirm that they will be paying his full salary/monies while he is on sick. Irrelevent of any claim he may/may not make. To ensure he has cash over the next few weeks and a job to go back to.

He should then consider a claim later, once he’s seen what they’ll do for him. And probably any monies the company give him over and above SSP would be contra’d out of an award anyway.

Based on what you have posted his employers liability insurers would probably just role over and pay any claim.
I lf i were him i would speak to the manager about coming to sone agreement and see where that goes. If the company are getting good advice they should bite his hand off.

HSE Prosecution!? Hardly. This stuff happens all the time.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/riddor/what-must-i-report.htm

Although RIDDOR does not cover broken fingers, the fact that he has been told to take time off work does not look good for the employer.

Any breakage of a bone or prolonged absence is riddor reportable isn’t it? Therefore a small investigation should go in with the report to the hse as a minimum, which will surely involve a statement from the injured party. Which if I’m not mistaken will implicate the company anyway due to lack of training! Not only that they’ll probably take a view that this was preventable anyway!

Although RIDDOR does not cover broken fingers, the fact that he has been told to take time off work does not look good for the employer.

It does cover injuries which result in somebody being away for work for more than 7 days, which would appear to include this – therefore must be reported to HSE. What they do with it is up to them. Not that this really helps the bloke with the injury, apart from that the company should be doing all they can to look after him.

Employers have a duty of care under the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974 to provide Information Instruction and Training

http://www.hse.gov.uk/youngpeople/law/hsaw.htm
http://www.rospa.com/occupationalsafety/adviceandinformation/smallfirmshealthandsafety/advicepack/sheet4.aspx

There should be a formal risk assesment for the equipment (task / work) being used, and a written Operating Instructions (OI).
The employee / worker should be Set To Work by a supervisor: it will be the supervisor who will be blamed by the employer and will be hung out to dry by the employer.

If he has been told to take time off work then this is now a Lost Time Accident which looks VERY bad for the employer.
Employers who are injuring employees, so badly that these people are unable to come into work, will find it more and more difficult to get employers liability insurance.

“It was a bad break and therefore has been advised to remain off work for 4 – 6 weeks. He is a production operative and uses his hands for his job and a variety of machines.”

For so many reasons this is remarkable.
Who advised him to remain off work ? and why?

Broken fingers can lead to arthritis in later life, when its too late to make a claim but severe enough to make manual work too painful.

Fractures to fingers and toes aren’t reportable.

7 days off or unable to carry out your normal duties is reportable.

Lack of any formal training on a particular machine is a breach of sect 2 HASAWA – if it can be proved.

Yes, have a chat with the manager but don’t forget that any payment above and over the norm for the company can be construed as an admission of guilt. Depends entirely on the organisation as to how they react.

If it was me I’d call up my boss and ask to come in and do ‘other duties’. The carrot for the company is that they can get away with not reporting it AND your mate gets his normal wage.

For so many reasons this is remarkable.
Who advised him to remain off work ? and why?

I don’t have all the information but as far as I know his doctor has advised him not to work for 4-6 weeks. Surgery on the finger may also be required as the break is very bad. He will be told if he needs surgery on Friday.

Most of the work he does requires a ‘delicate’ touch using a variety of handheld tools so have fingers strapped up will certainly limit his ability to carry out his normal duties. Generally I am aware that the company has some real training issues and they tend to work on very old fashioned principles i.e get on with it and shut up.

I don’t believe he or others have received any formal training on any machinery or given any Health and Safety info. It would seem that in terms of advice and info it’s just expected that colleagues will pass on info and knowledge as and when they think they should. A large number of senior staff were on holiday at the time of the incident and the person who was left in charge I am aware is less than adequate at his job.

I can see this as a company that will suddnely go bust if he makes a claim, but somewhere on a wall should be a certificate of insurance for employee liability.

Possibly even the boss may call at his house and persuade him that if he makes a claim against the insurance, the comapny will close putting all his fellow workers out of work.

Tough old world, but put in a claim and also ask for a copy ofthe accident book report, along with details of the firms insurer.If the comapny folds so be it.

Right I deal with this stuff every day.

The accident is not reportable to the HSE as a broken finger, but if he is off work for more than 7 days then it becomes reportable.

The HSE will not investigate – over 7 day injuries are just counted as statistical injuries.

If his company does not pay him in full for his time sick, then he should claim. This is why employers have employees liability insurance. If, as you say he has never received formal training on the machine then it’s a done deal for a payout. Your friend only needs to go to an ambulance chaser injury solicitor, and his employer will get a letter to pass to their insurers demanding to see stuff like RIDDOR report, risk assessments, safety committee minutes, test and maintenance records and certificates for the machine etc.

It is worth him having a chat with the manager and say that if he loses out financially he will have to recover his losses as the employer will try to avoid a claim if possible. However bear in mind that if he will be off work for months, then it’s cheaper for the employer to get the insurance company to pay his wages than for them to pay his wages.

Should be straightforward really!

Thanks for the info. I’ll link him this thread and try and advise him as best I can.

Boriselbrus – In your experience how do you find that employers treat employees after a claim is made. Is it a case of just waiting for the right opportunity to then get rid of the employee or do good employers happily put their hands up and out and except that it’s reasonable for someone to make a claim after an injury that wasn’t their fault. I think his main concerns above all are simply getting paid whilst off and keeping his job safe by not rocking the boat. On the other hand, my feeling is that the accident would have not happened had he been managed correctly and he has a nasty injury, pain and potential surgery plus all the subsequent worry for something that wasn’t his fault. I’m not a fan of compensation culture per say but this particular situation seems wholly unfair to him.

I’m not a fan of compensation culture per say but this particular situation seems wholly unfair to him.

There’s a difference between ambulance chasing and getting what is rightfully his to claim.

Is it his action finger?

He should get a decent payout. Stepson nearly severed his pinkie in a band saw. He hadn’t had formal training on the machine, but was expected to use it as part of his work. If it was me i’d have refused to use it until properly trained, but the impetousness of youth. He got 6k IIRC.

“Boriselbrus – In your experience how do you find that employers treat employees after a claim is made.”

It should make zero difference, and generally doesn’t in a big and/or professional organisation. However; the lack of training, then the way they’ve reacted doesn’t suggest they are particularly on the ball, so who knows.

That said, they might just be playing a bit of brinksmanship, and will roll over once RIDDOR etc are mentioned, and never give it another thought.

Fervourimage

I like Boris face this regularly, whilst you as a company try to cover every eventuality claims do come in, you pass them to your insurers and allow them to deal with it. No one becomes a target in today’s society it is part of the management process that we face today.

As a company we would not normally pay above SSP as it affects the bottom line and can open the floodgates for other illnesses to be paid when someone is off sick. The insurance claims go up the next year but that is budgeted for and costed.

Although PUWER and Health and Safety at Work Act require the employer to provide Information, Instruction and Training :
the employer has responsibilities
and the employee has responsilities under the Health and Safety at Work Act.
Put bluntly you are responsible for your own safety at work:
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/employment/healthandsafetyatwork/dg_4016683

If little Jonny decides to use a machine at work that little Jonny is not trained to use, and little Jonny gets injured when using this machine, then its difficult for little Jonny to blame anyone but himself.
If he does make a compensation claim then: the employer will ask why an admittedly untrained person was operating one of the company’s machines.
The company’s solicitor will ask the same question.
The company’s insurance company will ask the same question.

An important factor in a situations like this who was the person that set the employee to work: did the supervisor bully or intimidate the employee into actions that caused the injury.

http://www.tcea.org.uk/Documents/Health-and-Safety-Law.htm

“What legal duties are placed on me as an employee in respect of health and safety?

You have a common law duty of care as an employee. This means that you must exercise reasonable skill and care in your relationship with your employer and colleagues.

In addition the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974 requires you to take reasonable care for the health and safety of yourself and other people at work. This extends to co-operating to enable the employer to fulfil a legal duty.

You must not interfere with or obstruct anything provided in the interests of health and safety at work.

An employee who is in breach of his or her duties under the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974 may be liable to pay a fine on conviction. He or she may also be dismissed from employment for being in breach of a contractual duty to carry out work with proper care and skill, provided the employee was properly instructed about the safety measures and had been made aware that the interference could lead to dismissal. “
It did look very much like (“It was a bad break and therefore has been advised to remain off work for 4 – 6 weeks”) he had been suspended as part of a disciplinary procedure.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg291.pdf

“What does PUWER do?
In general terms, the Regulations require that equipment provided for use at work is:
suitable for the intended use
safe for use, maintained in a safe condition and, in certain circumstances,
inspected to ensure this remains the case;
used only by people who have received adequate information, instruction and training; and
accompanied by suitable safety measures, eg protective devices, markings,”

If your story is
I was injured while using a machine that I knew that I was not trained to use…. …is not a strong defence: if the employer does take disciplinary action.

If other people have been injured in the past when operating the same machine, and these injuries have been reported to the management of the company involved, and the management have done nothing to improve the safety of the machine. Then the management could be guilty of a breach of the duty of care in this case.
This is the reason for reporting accidents, section 2 HaSWa act.

It did look very much like (“It was a bad break and therefore has been advised to remain off work for 4 – 6 weeks”) he had been suspended as part of a disciplinary procedure.

No, absolutely not. A doctor advised him to stay clear of work for 4-6 weeks. The company will be worried about losing someone on the ‘shop floor’ during a crucial time of the year.

After speaking to him yesterday, he intends to take this coming week off work, as he is in a sling to reduce swelling of his hand, and return to do lighter duties the week after. He will pick up full pay for that week (companies policy) and then see what the Company Director has to say.

Probably be helpful if you read the thread Macavity…

Are people managed out after making a claim?

Depends…

We have a guy who cut off his protective leather apron when using a grinder and set fire to his trousers. He got a tiny burn, no time off work and no lasting damage. He is suing us but won’t be with us much longer… He probably won’t be successful with his claim either and was given a written warning for his actions.

We have another guy who was working with a machine which basically broke and a part flew off and hit him on the head. We suggested he claimed and have not disputed liability. It might not technically have been our fault as the machine was serviced and certified, but it most certainly wasn’t his, so we support him.

What I would suggest is your friend takes a reasonable line and is completely open with the employer. Basically say to them that if he doesn’t lose out financially then he won’t sue. This would never be legally binding though unless he signs a contract and receives legal advice first. For an employer it’s nice to have the conversation of “pay my wages and I won’t sue”. However for some employers the mere word “sue” will set them into panic mode if it’s not something they have dealt with before.

The the guy above quoting section 7 of the HASAWA and the employees responsibilities, yes you are technically correct, but the bottom line is the buck stops with the employer. If the employer knew he was using the machine and had done for a while, they are responsible for training and instruction under section 2. Section 7 is really about stopping people jumping on forklifts without the employer being aware etc.

boriselbrus – Member
We have a guy who cut off his protective leather apron when using a grinder and set fire to his trousers.

Thank you! That made me laugh!

HSE etc aside,

If I was off work with an injury due to a failure of an employer to provide legally mandated training, I’d expect said company to be going above and beyond to look after me. If their reaction instead was to cut my wages, I’d be going after them with both barrels.