Viewing 35 posts - 1 through 35 (of 35 total)
  • increasing confidence – how to increase skills but not scare folk off
  • big_scot_nanny
    Full Member

    Hello all,

    A question for you, would apprecaite some input: how would you go about increasing the abilities of someone new to mtbing?

    I'm thinking 'evolution of man – evolution of mtbing' key steps e.g.
    1) Able to ride sitting in saddle
    2) able to ride and pump the pedals standing up
    3) Able to get bum off back of saddle etc etc

    I regularly ride with a couple of mates who are fit (fitter than me!) and have pretty good skills (much better than me), and it is great fun. However, I also have 2 other mates who are very keen to get into it. Been out on a couple of rides with them, very gentle (fireroad, wee bit of smooth singletrack) but nice to go for a 1-1.5hr pootle with good company. They are really keen to get into it more. Both are riding fully rigid old hardtails (raleigh's and the like), neither of which are a very good fit, and I am a little afraid they will break on the next bump, but this Q is more about their skill and confidence. We all have kids as well, and so learnign new things is perhaps not as easy as it once was! (i.e. not old, but not exactly spring chicken's either!)

    They do that classic beginner thing of doing everything sat in the saddle, death grip on the brakes, arms rigid on anything as soon as we get off the fireroad, or even on the fireroad when going downhill.

    I do not want to scare them off, they do want to get into it more, but I am not sure how to move them on without pushing too far. I used to be a ski-instructor so have knowledge on how to do it for skiing, and there must be similar process for mtb-ing that I would like your input on.

    Example exchange between me and alan:
    'This bit may be a bit bumpy and is downhill, so try to stand up on the pedals and relax, bend your knees and elbows'
    'But when I stand up it feels a lot less controlled, when I sit on my bum I can grip the saddle and stop the bike moving about. i also feel very high above the bike and out of control'

    so, opinions greatly apprecaited!

    Kev

    tron
    Free Member

    Better bikes – even hire bikes? I have a mate who minces about a bit when he's on his bike, and goes pretty well on mine. There's no massive difference in how the two handle, it's just a confidence boost.

    glenp
    Free Member

    That question pretty much calls for all of the information that we have spent years building up. There are issues of physical technique, other issues of mental and emotional control, and lots more besides.

    So, the short answer is spend the price of a pair of cheap tyres on a skills session and open up a huge world of possibilities! It is very much the kind of thing (or one of them) that we specialise in – we have literally taught thousands of beginners and almost always see a big big jump in confidence and safety within the first session.

    Free tip: Standing up is absolutely mandatory, as is not looking at the ground. So start with practicing that in a totally safe environment, before taking the technique to anywhere bumpy.

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    stevomcd
    Free Member

    We do a bit of this, although most people who come out to the Alps are (fortunately!) beyond that stage.

    First thing, drop the saddle all the way. Then they can't sit on it! It's also much more natural like that to get in a decent legs/arms bent position as the saddle isn't in the way.

    Beyond that, if people are still gripped it's because you've gone too far, too soon. Build up slow. Get on level ground and get people moving about on the bike, exploring the limits of their movement.

    Find a short, steep bank with a very safe run-out and work on braking/body position on that (e.g. "see how slowly you can go down the bank").

    Try to get people looking ahead and picking spots to brake in rather than braking all the time.

    Lots and lots of stuff to do, much like teaching skiing/boarding. If you're really interested, you could do worse than pick up Brian Lopes' book. Excellent guide to bike skills and generally well-worded to help you yourself understand "how" to do things that you already do naturally.

    EDIT: Or, glenp + 1 ! I've met Richard who works with Glen and he's a good bloke, we had some good chats about bike skills and coaching. Skills session would be a very good idea.

    swallow
    Free Member

    take them to the top of something really really steep with no other option than straight down. They'll learn quicker that way and if the bikes snap they'll then have to get something newer/better

    simonfbarnes
    Free Member

    I've led around 400 beginner rides to date, but my own riding skills are so scant I'd not presume to give instruction to anyone else beyond "Keep your weight back and feather the front brake" and "The bike follows the eyes" 🙂 So long as you pick routes that are exciting and fun they soon get the idea! Don't pick terrain that's too bland…

    Diane
    Free Member

    'Beginner rides' 😯

    simonfbarnes
    Free Member

    'Beginner rides'

    so far you've picked rides without Mags present – then you'd see what 'beginner' means :o)

    big_scot_nanny
    Full Member

    Diane, frankly, it is very hard (phwoar!)to write anything about mtbing without a huge fnaar (ooerr!) just around the corner. 😆

    Swallow, that was how my bloody father (still love him though!) taught me to ski as a 7yr old – Cairngorms, horrendous weather, top of cor na ciste 'right son, off you go yah big jessie'. Bloody terrifying! Might not take the same approach as I don't want to 'break' them! 😳

    nice advice from the rest, find a pratical bit and 'session' it essentially. Yep, there are definintely places we can do that safely.

    Once we've got the hang of positioning body fore and aft atnading on pedals, what's next? Skills course not a bad idea but no idea if there are any here (Basel, CH, and just recently saw some posts from other lads around here, may have to hook up. Ash I think?), and I kind of have to get them into it before they will splash out. A bit chicken and egg.

    Next – how to get them to lay a significant amount of wonga on a new bike!

    Kev

    Woody
    Free Member

    'But when I stand up it feels a lot less controlled, when I sit on my bum I can grip the saddle and stop the bike moving about. i also feel very high above the bike and out of control'

    Have they just learned to ride in adulthood ? These are things which normally come naturally from riding a bike in childhood.

    Stop being a 'Nanny' and tell them they seriously need to MTFU and get bikes you are not scared will break.

    juan
    Free Member

    Take it easy and increase the difficulty gradually.
    Spend a lot of time giving them the basics tips (look ahead, no really ahead, gentle on the brake, don't brake on the obstacle, look where you want to go, get your elbows in etc etc) and keep repeating them. Stick to a few routes that will develop the basics and do it again and again until they can ride them faultless. Then take them to something a little harder. And so and so… Plus a bit of MTFU might be sometimes needed.

    EDIT Contact tes clubs locaux 😉 They might be able to help

    stills8tannorm
    Free Member

    As glenp says get them to understand that sitting down is not an option … it's something even quite experienced riders will do as anxiety levels rise. They're adults so be honest with them, explain what will and will not make them crash, they'll either except it and continue to ride / progress or they won't.

    Yes a skills course would make a massive difference to them … but I'm biased 😉

    Have you considered that they may not trust your advice? Don't take that the wrong way but I do see lots of people who spent their time riding with good riders but they find it difficult to accept their advice … if that makes sense.

    Stuart

    Woody
    Free Member

    I assume they are men?

    If so take them down something (doesn't have to be steep) which is very uneven ie. small rocks/bumps. They will stand up pretty damn quick when their 'chuckies' are bouncing off the saddle 😉

    GW
    Free Member

    Dunno – I think there's something to be said for not pussying around in the first place

    my first proper off-road ride on an MTB was an XC race (couldn't believe I had to buy a helmet), second was to a quarry riding down mega steep chutes and off drops – learnt rather a lot on those two rides.
    (did ride BMX years before tho)

    simonfbarnes
    Free Member

    Stick to a few routes that will develop the basics and do it again and again until they can ride them faultless.

    eeek, sounds awful 🙁

    I think there's something to be said for not pussying around in the first place

    definitely! So long as you make it clear they don't have to ride anything they don't fancy there's not a problem 🙂

    glenp
    Free Member

    Most people learn nothing by being "thrown in at the deep end". Even if they survive it they don't recall how, and the perceived danger makes them tense, which changes their riding in lots of ways, all of them bad.

    The key is to isolate all the factors – get the technique away from the fear factor. Then introduce the fear factor in tiny doses and let the rider reassert their controlled way of thinking over the small dose of fear.

    MTFU is utter nonsense when it comes to teaching grown-ups, unless the way you MTFU is progressive and intelligent.

    GW
    Free Member

    Glen – with respect, that is probably true for the sort of people you teach, but not everyone.

    glenp
    Free Member

    Well, there are thousands of them (literally) – it isn't likely that they are all the same. Well, I can tell you – they aren't all the same.

    Progressive is better always. The rate of progression is particular to the individual (and our skill s to judge that rate), but no-one benefits from such a big leap in bravery that they do a section clinging on and tense. You only learn when the brain calms down.

    tron
    Free Member

    You only learn when the brain calms down.

    I did a bit of Outdoor Ed at uni, and the man speaks sense (and has probably done rather more reading on education than I have). If someone is bricking it, their conscious brain is shut down.

    stills8tannorm
    Free Member

    'If someone is bricking it, their conscious brain is shut down'

    "Tis so true … it's one of the reasons people panic brake, you know right on the edge of a drop or step. Often don't even realise they've pulled the brakes on.

    Stuart

    Woody
    Free Member

    I've taught a couple people to ski and I agree that progression is key and that there is no point in scaring them or taking them down something that is way beyond their skill level but……………

    ….we are talking about 2 guys who are scared to stand up on the pedals FFS. Surely that is something which should be second nature when hopping off a kerb or even going over a raised manhole cover and if they can't do that before attempting easy offroad routes then there is something amiss.

    Are they …ahem…rather delicate creatures ?

    glenp
    Free Member

    Actually, it doesn't surprise me at all. Even very experienced cyclists find it strange to be standing up, and are inclined to sit down when they feel threatened (ie at the worst possible moment). This is one of many reasons why progression is vital.

    You learn to ride a bike when you're very young, and it gives rise to some very weird behaviour:

    You think the bike is a vehicle that you are a passenger on, rather than recognising that you are the boss of it (not the other way round).

    You constantly check the ground for tripping hazzards, because you're riding like its walking. This is because walking was the only other previous thing you could do before you started cycling.

    You sit down because that's how you do it when you're four.

    And so-on. It all feels quite normal to most "cyclists" but it is hard to un-learn because it is very old behaviour.

    smokey_jo
    Full Member

    sfb in humble shocker "but my own riding skills are so scant I'd not presume to give instruction" ;-, your riding skills are better than that, it's the teaching skill that you may not have confidence in. Having been on a few of sfb's beginner rides and tried to help newbies I've learnt that everyone is different in the way that they can accept advice. Having been on the receiving end of Pro instructors advice it's apparent that they know how to ride but more importantly how to teach. Simple exercises for even experienced riders can make huge differences to their ability.

    Woody
    Free Member

    glenp

    Interesting stuff. So MTFU is not a recognised teaching tip 😉

    TBH it had never occurred to me not to stand up when I started riding offroad and I was over 30 and hadn't been near a bike since I was about 15! Most of the guys I cycled with at the time were in the same boat and none of us were shining examples of fitness but we just got on with it. And damned painful it was at times too!

    You are right about bad habits, I must have loads 😳 Pity you're not a bit closer otherwise I would definitely benefit from a few pointers from someone who actually knows what they are doing.

    stevomcd
    Free Member

    I'd very much agree with glenp again. Unless everyone's hooning it and rubbing my back tyre right from the off, I generally do a quick session working my way back through the group on the first morning, just ride behind each person for a bit and watch their riding style.

    It's amazing how many people try to sit down through rough sections or who stand up straight with their knees locked (often gripping the saddle between their knees too). You can make quite a big difference to a lot of people's riding just by pointing out some core skills like this. There's other things you can pick up quickly in the same way (e.g. poor braking technique or poor foot position in corners).

    Apart from a couple of trips per season, we don't sell our holidays as coaching weeks, but a little bit of input on the first morning can make a big difference to how quickly people adapt to riding in the Alps and how much they enjoy their week.

    cycleactive
    Free Member

    Kev, when people put up posts with specific skills questions I try to give specific answers. I do the same for BikeRadar website in a more official capacity as their skills author. But let me ask you a question – as a former ski instructor would you not think that the best way for people to get the right coaching, advice and progressive skills development on skis would be to get a couple of lessons? On this forum you'll come across several skills outfits, of which we at CycleActive are one. I personally have done loads of work with novices, nervous riders and so on and in every case they are making huge skills and confidence gains in just one day.

    I know this may come across as a bit salesy but i honestly believe that the very best thing they can do is book a day of coaching between them, or maybe even for the group of you, and treat it as a social as well as an educational experience. If it's with us we're also fully sponsored by Trek so you can stick them on some nice hardtail or full sus 2010 bikes to give them a taster too.OK, advert over.

    In the meantime, if you have specific skills questions then stick them up here. the one about the feeling of lack of control when standing up is really common as people are not used to the bike being free to move from side to side under them if they always rode on the road, and sitting down. We usually use slalom, cornering and cone of movement exercises to not only get over this fear, but to begin to see how you can lean and move the bike around to get through the trails and turns more smoothly than just sitting on the saddle.
    Cheers
    chris@CycleActive

    juan
    Free Member

    Steve do people actually sit down when it gets rough? I am quite surprised by that, as it always seems natural from me to stand up and use the legs as "rear shock" to make the ride smoother.
    I agree about poor braking and foot position, but to be fair it even happens to people who have been riding for ages (local downhill bit made for everyone has just been ruined by local dhers with over killed rigs that don't know that braking have in-between positions not just on and off).

    I think that personally it's because more and more people buy their stuff online rather than in shops. I use to go on rides with my LBS owners and they have taught me some very valuable skills from day one. Same each time a client comes in and ask a question about riding (ok under the cover of buying something) lbs owner always try to tell them a bit about riding. Shops tend to work as social network too, gathering clients for rides where the slowest people benefit from the experience of faster riders again improving skills.

    big_scot_nanny
    Full Member

    Thank you for all the responses. 8)

    I get the whole MTFU approach, (see my father's Scottish equivalent 'ah go on yah big jessie'), and indeed sometimes people can really surprise themselves and a huge sense of satisfaction by doing something 'scary'. So there is always an element of truth in stretching someone outside what they feel comfortable, but as others comment, if you push too far it all just shuts down.

    Sooo, also advice on using a wee slightly testing safe area and doing some reps to build confidence a good idea. I understand the advice to go for lessons, so will investigate what is available here in Schweiz, if we were in the UK would deffo pursue one of the kind offers extended here. 😀

    But, another ride coming up on Sunday morning, and would like one thing, and one thing only, to focus on for this Sunday. What should I aim for given the description above? (sitting down, death grip, stiff arms etc). Which first piece of advice would you recommend we start with?

    Thanks all, really great input!

    Kev

    juan
    Free Member

    Look, look look look…

    RayMazey
    Free Member

    Skills Course

    stevomcd
    Free Member

    big_scot_nanny:

    First thing: get them standing up on the pedals. Most other stuff follows from there. We're running some skills weeks out here in the French Alps this year, so not too far from you. Some beginner-orientated courses with us doing all the coaching, plus a more advanced one with the guys from Dirt School (click my username for website) – a whole week in the Alps might be a bit more than you're looking for though!

    Juan: Yes, people really do try to sit down! Usually beginners though, as you say it comes naturally to most people fairly quickly.

    glenp
    Free Member

    b_s_n

    If you want one single thing to do then, as has been said, get them standing on the pedals. But add a bit of refinement – looking straight ahead, and riding the pedals, not the handlebars. You will probably find that you need to make it a lot more basic than you might imagine, and then there will come a "click" point where it will be obvious you can go to the next level. Be progressive, but that doesn't mean not advancing – there may be some quite rapid advancement, but make it logical, controlled and progressive for each individual. This may also include the odd "man up" moment – but that in itself should be subject to measured thought, rather than the full-on jump off a cliff approach!

    jedi
    Full Member

    there's a lot to be said with not showing a beginner how good YOU are and just ride gentle trails etc WITH them and not riding off and waiting all the time.
    the expererice riders 1st get can affect weather they ride again or not.

    big_scot_nanny
    Full Member

    Right, will see how we get on on Sunday, will explore further skills courses. A few days in teh Alps might be a great b-day present!

    big_scot_nanny
    Full Member

    I am sure you are all waiting with baited (bated? Bayted?) breath for an update, but unfortunately the weather was **** awful at the weekend so Sunday ride was aborted. What a bunch of big jessies we are! 😀

    Will update as we go.

    Kev

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