As a general point, I think people get rather pre-occupied with segregated facilities, as if they’re some sort of panacea. They forget that we already tried segregation in Milton Keynes, and no-one cycles there. By contrast, cycling rates in Oxford and Cambridge are very high, with everyone sharing the same narrow roads. The notion that “build it and they will come” is demonstrably false.

There’s a great blog post discussing the failure of cycling in Milton Keynes here: http://aseasyasridingabike.wordpress.com/2012/04/26/they-built-it-and-they-didnt-come-the-lesson-of-milton-keynes/

But in short, while it’s easy to cycle there, it’s even easier to drive. Not something that applies to most other cities in the UK.

Oxford and Cambridge don’t have high levels of cycling ‘cos the roads are narrow, it’s almost certainly due to the large student populations. There’s also some good segregated cycle infrastructure in Oxford.

Conversely, where’s the cycling paradise that’s been achieved by making cars and cyclists mix?

That’s nice, but it’s not like that everywhere!

True. But that’s because we let cars take priority and try to fit crap cycle paths around the roads as an after-thought. It doesn’t have to be that way.

Show us your drawing. I contend that it cannot be done in a typical city street

Did you look at the photos in the link? They illustrate much better than any cack-handed scribble I could produce.

So where does the traffic go?

Lots of options. Most roads are pretty wide given they have one lane each direction. Take some from that. Not all roads need to run both ways for cars. Not all roads need parking on both sides.

Most importantly, everywhere does not need to be accessible by car. City Centres should be living spaces for people. Cars can visit, slowly, we shouldn’t expect it to be a thoroughfare.

Read some of the Hembrow posts here: http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/search/label/notenoughspace

Whilst these routes are nice, they don’t make much of an impact on UK cycling IMO.

I’ll be taking my wife down to the Quayside on Sunday for the Cycle Hub Jumble Sale. We’ll be towing the little one in a trailer or maybe on a child seat. There is absolutely no way in hell that I could persuade the missus to ride down the dual-carriageway instead (not that I would try) but she’s happy to ride it on that route – so that is two adults and a child cycling this weekend who would otherwise be taking the car.

There’s a nice little bike cafe opened at the end of the quayside which is a really nice spot to sit and have a coffee

Yep, that’ll be The Cycle Hub

This was my cycle route home yesterday evening from Llandough to Cardiff Bay where I live on National Route 8.

the sustrans route to the south of Glasgow (basically from about Paisley to Kilbirnie (about 20 miles) going past Lochwinnoch or over to Port Glasgow (about 15 miles) is really good. Connects up various towns / villages with each other in a direct way and virtually all off road and it is good quality tarmac in much better state than the roads and is very popular as a result.

Yep, its a great route GrahamS, and others like it like the derwent walk, waskerley way and lanchester valley route have been instrumental in getting my partner, sister in law and niece out on their bikes.

There you go. There’s 3 more.

If we want more people cycling, and we do, then we must provide these kinds of routes.

No amount of white paint and green tarmac will make a dual carriageway safe for a four year old.

OK here’s National Route 8 from Brecon to Cardiff 85 kms long.
You can take the A470 which is a deathtrap for cyclists or you can take this route which runs parallel to it!

Or you can take many other routes (from Merthyr at least) down to Cardiff, not just the A470! And how long did it take you do get from Brecon to Cardiff on the Taff trail?

And since when is Brecon-Cardiff a common cycle commute?

Do you mean the Taff Trail?

Yes, and I am talking specifically about the bit between town and Castell Coch, that I used to use. Mostly on weekends, when it was crowded. Although I still think I’d go along the A4054 anyway even if I was going all the way to Ponty.

I’ve never done it at rush hour mind, North Road in Cardiff is pretty busy then for sure.

Oxford and Cambridge don’t have high levels of cycling ‘cos the roads are narrow, it’s almost certainly due to the large student populations. There’s also some good segregated cycle infrastructure in Oxford.

No. Cycling levels in Cambridge are around 30% excluding students.

Conversely, where’s the cycling paradise that’s been achieved by making cars and cyclists mix?

Who said there is one? The point is that shared space is not a barrier to high rates of cycling.

so that is two adults and a child cycling this weekend who would otherwise be taking the car

Oh, well if it works for sunday pootles then that’s problem solved eh?

Most roads are pretty wide

Where tf do you life? 😯

Look I’m not saying cycle facilities are not good in some situations. Read back, I’ve praised many. But they can also be a liability, and I don’t want to be forced to use them otherwise all my rides will end up being Sunday pootles. I do not want that.

The point is that shared space is not a barrier to high rates of cycling.

As observed in Bristol, by me.

And how long did it take you do get from Brecon to Cardiff on the Taff trail?

About 4 hours but I was stopping to take pictures every 5 minutes cause it was so beautiful! 😀

I regularly do the Taff Trail between Cardiff Bay and Castle Coch – pretty busy particularly in rush hour.

Most roadside cycle lanes in Cardiff however are used as street parking. Really shits me! 👿

I just got off the phone from talking to the local rag about the Bristol-Bath Path and I really feel I should have gushed about it more. It’s up there with the suspension bridge and Ashton Court as one of the ace things about Bristol. What’s particularly fantastic is that it started as a grass-roots volunteer initiative, with the local cycle campaigners literally building it by hand.

Sustrans don’t seem to do that many big infrastructure projects any more, but the Two Tunnels route in Bath is going to be ace when it opens later this year. There should also be a new route coming soon which will upgrade and join up the River Avon Trail from Keynsham to Bristol. Much nicer than mixing it up on the A4 through Brislington or trying to get your bike onto a poxy local train.

No. Cycling levels in Cambridge are around 30% excluding students.

Yes, but that could be argued that the students push it past critical mass, a big multi-site university in a very small town means lots of cyclists, enough to make bikes quicker than cars, which gets everyone elese out on bikes.

The point is that shared space is not a barrier to high rates of cycling.

I have absolutely no data to contradict your claim so will take it at face value but ………..

At home here, there’s only me that will ride on the road with or without cycle lanes
My wife and kids love getting out on their bikes but only on the single use cycle paths

I’m fairly sure that cycling would be better served for most people [ie ones who don’t currently cycle] by more dedicated paths rather than using the resource on improving commuting routes amongst other traffic.

Lots of nice greenery and semi-rural paths…

Which any large city in the UK tends to be a bit short of…

Think as well that to travel out from a city centre involves passing through various neighbourhoods on your nice secluded traffic free path.

I’d rather take my chances on the road than ride out from Manchester through the nice quiet back streets or up the nice traffic free canal, because I don’t want to end up getting punched and my bike stolen.

I’m not against seperate cycling facilities, but there isn’t the will or the continued investment to make them work in large parts of the urban UK.

Even the bike lanes leading to the Velodrome in Manchester are only cleaned once a year; leaving glass and rubbish filled ‘cycle’ paths.

No. Cycling levels in Cambridge are around 30% excluding students.

And yet despite the apparent success of mixed-mode routes in Cambridge, here is the Cambridge Cycle Campaign saying how great the facilities in Copenhagen are and calling for complete corridors where the council “redesign the use of space to make cycling the easiest and fastest way to move along this corridor”!

Oh, well if it works for sunday pootles then that’s problem solved eh?

Yep it pretty much is.

More sunday pootles = more cyclists = more pressure, more political will, more money, more resources, more understanding.

Pretty much all cyclists start with Sunday pootles. No one shoves their youngest child onto the A-road and tells them they can have the stabilisers off when they’ve done five miles without getting squashed.

I don’t want to be forced to use them otherwise all my rides will end up being Sunday pootles. I do not want that.

Why would you be forced to use them? If they were good quality then you might actively prefer to use them, as I do, but why would you be forced?

Which any large city in the UK tends to be a bit short of…

Is Newcastle not a “large city” then?

I’m not against seperate cycling facilities, but there isn’t the will or the continued investment to make them work in large parts of the urban UK.

So are you providing any will or investment?

Yes, but that could be argued that the students push it past critical mass, a big multi-site university in a very small town means lots of cyclists, enough to make bikes quicker than cars, which gets everyone elese out on bikes.

Yes, but it’s critical mass that’s been achieved with shared space. We can learn a lot from the Dutch model about how that is achieved – segregation is only a small part of their success.

I like many of Sustrans’ leisure routes, and I’ve made a monthly donation to them for many years. But they do little to solve the traffic problem in our towns and cities.

So are you providing any will or investment?

Nope. Not interested in cycle paths, largely because they serve one section of the community and exclude everyone who can’t or doesn’t want to ride a bike.

Public transport should be the focus; you might get 6 bikes in the space of a car, but how many people can you get on a bus?

Most roadside cycle lanes in Cardiff however are used as street parking.

There’s a solid-line, no-parking cycle lane down the road from where I live that merges seamlessly into marked parking bays (link, you can see it on the north side of the road). Not that it matters, like, cos all the local residents just park wherever the **** they like anyway. A genius bit of infrastructure provision, even by the epically retarded standards of our local council.

I actively avoid the majority of marked lanes and ASLs and so on round our way, most of our local “facilities” are bloody lethal. My own commute isn’t bad, because I take a lot of cheeky options along towpaths and footpaths, but it’s muddy and inconvenient, so I’d love to have a commute like the OPs, lucky sod.

Cycling levels in Cambridge are around 30% excluding students.

I have to say I’m a bit sceptical of that figure. Hembrow (yes, him again) reckons it’s more like 20%, and a lot of that is made up of ex-students who have stuck around. http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/2011/11/truth-about-cambridge.html

Yeah no doubt people will cycle under less than ideal conditions, but what gets people cycling in massive numbers, safely, in an industrialised country with easy access to cars, is a bit more of a vexed question, and Holland, Germany and Denmark all seem to be doing it right.

I like many of Sustrans’ leisure routes, and I’ve made a monthly donation to them for many years. But they do little to solve the traffic problem in our towns and cities.

This is true.

But that traffic problem is a problem for existing cyclists. People who already cycle in traffic despite the conditions.

We are not the target audience.

We need to attract new cyclists. People who don’t currently cycle. And what they want, as evidenced by national surveys and personal replies here, are traffic-free routes.

Nope. Not interested in cycle paths, largely because they serve one section of the community and exclude everyone who can’t or doesn’t want to ride a bike.

They are open to people on foot too you know. Most will even be wheelchair accessible. I don’t see that as “exclusive” at all.

I like Sustrans – a lot. Great work done by good people. Been a supporter for many years.

Nope. Not interested in cycle paths, largely because they serve one section of the community and exclude everyone who can’t or doesn’t want to ride a bike

All cycle paths are defacto open to pedestrians too.

oooop – beaten to it, true though. 8)

They are open to people on foot too you know. Most will even be wheelchair accessible. I don’t see that as “exclusive” at all

Give over!

You’d be moaning like anything if your journey to work was held up by people walking along or in wheelchairs.

It strikes me as a kind of empire building; build us cycle paths so we can ride unhindered through the land…. Er, yes, but what about everyone else?

…the danger is that you turn into drivers in terms of attitude.

Look at the problems of moving the entire city work force in and out again once a day; bicycle paths ain’t gonna do it.

More sunday pootles = more cyclists = more pressure, more political will, more money, more resources, more understanding.

.. for Sunday pootles, yes.

The danger is that cycling turns into Sunday pootling. I’ve had aggro from drivers both here and in Germany for NOT being on the cyclepaths.

In Germany there was a concerted effort by local authorities to effectively ban cyclists from roads by exploiting a loophole – if they put up a sign signalling a cyclepath then you were obliged to use it. Most of them you are forced to cycle below about 15mph because it’s just to dangerous and irresponsible to go faster.

This loophole was legally closed a few years ago because the federal govt ruled that it was unlawful for local authorities to do this – cycle path usage should only be mandated at particularly dangerous junctions or segments.

Which was good, since it probably cut my commuting time by a third and allowed me to enjoy my cycling.

Public transport should be the focus; you might get 6 bikes in the space of a car, but how many people can you get on a bus?

Public transport doesn’t have any of the health benefits of cycling and while it continues to be monopolised by private companies like First Group, it’s going to remain patchy and expensive.

An example are the Bus Rapid Transit systems that keep being proposed in Bristol. They’d only be able to carry a fraction of the numbers who commute in and out of the city, and the proposed routes all seem to encroach on existing cycle infrastructure. Grrrr…

There’s a solid-line, no-parking cycle lane down the road from where I live that merges seamlessly into marked parking bays. Not that it matters, like, cos all the local residents just park wherever the **** they like anyway. A genius bit of infrastructure provision, even by the epically retarded standards of our local council.

Roadside cycle lanes don’t work IMO.
This is James St Cardiff and I use this cycle lane daily (in red).
Even on this google image you can see the lane is just a carpark and its usually alot worse than this in rush hours.

Yes, and I am talking specifically about the bit between town and Castell Coch, that I used to use. Mostly on weekends, when it was crowded. Although I still think I’d go along the A4054 anyway even if I was going all the way to Ponty.

On the rare occasion I’ve had to work weekends and commuted I’d agree you do get a lot of walkers. They seem to be a different breed too who are totally oblivious to any other trail users. During the commute hours walker seem to be more aware and accommodating.

As for the A4054 v Taff Trail to Pontypridd, if anything the TT surface is better and of course has no traffic to contend with. However, it is about a mile further so takes about 5 minutes longer. But I’ll put up with that not to have to ride in traffic.

You’d be moaning like anything if your journey to work was held up by people walking along or in wheelchairs.

Plenty of people walking on my route. There’s a school on it and if you come past at school hours there are lots of kids walking (and cycling). That’s a good thing as far as I’m concerned. It’s a wide enough path that they don’t slow me down too much.

And yes I regularly see a guy in a recumbent hand-cycle too.

It strikes me as a kind of empire building; build us cycle paths so we can ride unhindered through the land…. Er, yes, but what about everyone else?

Nonsense – it’s about empire destroying! Cars already have the empire – we just want some back to walk and cycle on safely.

Look at the problems of moving the entire city work force in and out again once a day; bicycle paths ain’t gonna do it.

They can play a big part. In more civilised countries 45% of journeys are made by bike, including riding to work!

In the words of Ian Walker “car parking is a nice illustration of the bizarre level of freedom given to motorists”

http://bamboobadger.blogspot.co.uk/2008/01/car-parking-ill-just-leave-this.html

Also less cars, buses become more efficient and practical. When I lived in leeds I walked, because it often about the same speed as getting a bus…

You’d be moaning like anything if your journey to work was held up by people walking along or in wheelchairs.

Isn’t that the sort of attitude that causes friction in the first place, people not wanting to be held up in their cars etc? Aren’t cyclists supposed to be a bit more laid back about it all?
I’d just set off earlier and chill a bit more TBH

I’ve had aggro from drivers both here and in Germany for NOT being on the cyclepaths.

We all have. I’ve been shouted at to “get off the road” and to “get on the road” in the same journey.

If there was a referendum tomorrow to make it law that bikes must use cycle paths then the “Yes” vote would win hands down.

But if more of the population were cycling then you’d get a lot more sympathy.

In Germany there was a concerted effort by local authorities to effectively ban cyclists from roads by exploiting a loophole – if they put up a sign signalling a cyclepath then you were obliged to use it.

We are not Germany. And as you point out, it failed there anyway!

We need to attract new cyclists. People who don’t currently cycle. And what they want, as evidenced by national surveys and personal replies here, are traffic-free routes.

It’s pretty clear that new cyclists want safe routes. They perceive that traffic-free routes are the way to achieve this (though my understanding is that they’re not actually any safer…)

As I keep saying, segregated facilities are only one small part of the story in places like Denmark and Holland. I can think of a whole list of actions that they have taken which would make life better for cyclists, none of which involve shoe horning a cycle path into a narrow street.

Anyway, turn the argument around: the Dutch embarked on a massive programme of building segregated facilities from the late 1980s: it didn’t lead to an increase in cycling. “build it and they will come” is a nonsense.

I’m not anti the idea, I’m not even sure I can be arsed arguing about it, but it all sounds so selfish.

Take my family (please…)

My mum doesn’t ride a bike, she’s 70, she’s very fit, but doesn’t ride a bike.
Her sister, my Aunt, has had a joint replacement, she’s 80.
My dad can’t manage to stand up for very long, he’s proper poorly.
Me? I could ride a bike to work and back.
Mrs crikey travels about during the day for work, so needs a car, in fact having a car is a prerequisite for the job.

So all that investment would benefit me, and have no effect at all on the others.
That’s what I mean by selfish; you’re thinking of cyclists, not people.

There’s a great blog post discussing the failure of cycling in Milton Keynes here: http://aseasyasridingabike.wordpress.com/2012/04/26/they-built-it-and-they-didnt-come-the-lesson-of-milton-keynes/

But in short, while it’s easy to cycle there, it’s even easier to drive. Not something that applies to most other cities in the UK.

So, in summary:

1. People don’t cycle in Milton Keynes because it isn’t time competitive when compared to driving. Milton Keynes has extensive segregated infrastructure.
2. People do cycle in Cambridge (and Oxford and York) because it is time competitive. Cambridge has little segregated infrastructure.

Not really an argument for building more cycle paths, is it?

the Dutch embarked on a massive programme of building segregated facilities from the late 1980s: it didn’t lead to an increase in cycling.

That’s technically true, numbers of Dutch and Danish cyclists are now falling slightly I believe. But they kept their levels of cycling higher than anywhere else in Europe in the face of enormous pressure from private motor vehicles.

Bogota in Columbia still has fairly paltry cycling levels (about 5% apparently) but it’s an example of somewhere which saw a big increase in cycling after building proper infrastructure (and improving the bike-friendliness of public transport).

http://thisbigcity.net/photo-essay-bogota-and-the-bicycle-a-city-that-prioritises-cyclists/

…and the minute you begin to segregate cyclists from ‘traffic’, road design begins to ignore them, concentrating on processing cars and lorries and motorbikes faster and faster; making the roads more dangerous for everyone, especially pedestrians.

Need to stop thinking about ‘cycling’ and start thinking about ‘transport’…

We are not Germany. And as you point out, it failed there anyway!

I was giving an example of what could happen with segregated cycle facilities. You asked how we’d end up banned from the roads, I gave an example from a different country. The point was that the motorists USED this ‘rule’ to feel justified in giving out lots of grief even when it wasn’t legal.

I’d just set off earlier and chill a bit more TBH

It’s not just about that, it’s about being at liberty to do my sport, which is cycling quickly.

But if more of the population were cycling then you’d get a lot more sympathy.

Hmm, perhaps, but there’s a difference between cycling for transport and recreation and cycling for sport. If the majority were just tootlers then the fast cyclists would be just as outcast as they are now.

One last point from me.

I work part time in a TIC, and I am frequently being asked by visitors if there are any Cycle paths from the town. There aren’t but I ask what they mean to try and offer them the next best thing. Invariably what they mean is a sustrans style cycle path (along the old railway etc.), and often they are of the opinion we must have one, because we had a railway.

People (some people, that I am in no position to accurately quantify) want to cycle in a traffic free environment.