Thanks Graham, I was vaguely aware of those, I’ve just not been made aware of one anywhere locally, all the emphasis is getting kids out of cars, and safely onto bikes, as the pedestrian side of things is more than adequate.
It’s stopping the kids on my route to work from just stepping off the footpath into the cycle lane that runs alongside the main road that’s proving tricky…

‘don’t fall on the wet side’

Killing fish? Are you polish?

I’m vegetarian, so the whys and wherefores of fishing isn’t a great area of expertise for me. I assumed, evidently naively, that the whole raison d’etre of dragging fish out of the water was to have something fishy for tea. If that’s not the case then feel free to mentally amend “killing fish” to read “maiming fish” instead in my previous post.

“Caution: Geese With No Sense of Personal Space”

Would be useful for the bit by shipley where a goose jumped up on my mate’s pack and “humped” his head.

If Lara doesn’t make a sign for that then Jamie has to.

Come on photoshop monkey dance for me 😡

You could do with a ‘Caution! Scrotes Loitering with Intent’ for every canal towpath around Manchester.

Would be useful for the bit by shipley where a goose jumped up on my mate’s pack and “humped” his head.

It was just having a gander.

If that’s not the case then feel free to mentally amend “killing fish” to read “maiming fish” instead in my previous post.

I see your point.

I have to say the Sustrans route near me is a joke it’s apparently a “national cycle route”. In reality it’s a 2ft wide piece of crumbling potholed tarmac which imo is a poor footpath at best but it’s been adopted none the less, and has had a few 3 inch blue stickers stick to any existing street furniture that’ll take a sticker. The route then diverts all round the houses on an on road route (no cycle route markings) cars parked everywhere loads of junctions and driveways when there is an ideal direct and wide off road route which should be a cycle route and isn’t. I know which bits I use.

ok back to signage

needs to be consistent – maintain route names, try to keep signs in consistent positions that tell someone approaching the sign the direction to go in (obvious but many signs on trails just tell you the name of the trail)
needs to be timely – ie regular, 2km off route and back is a lot of time on a bike, signs confirming the trail (and direction) are useful
needs directionality – ok so I’m the Leeds-Liverpool canal trail, am I heading towards Leeds or Liverpool?
needs to refer to destinations – trail names/numbers are useful but places are where people go to and recognise
provide maps – not everywhere but at key access points / junctions so people can work out what signage need to look for
signpost utilities – shops/toilets/cafes/picnic spots
line mark trails – through car parks/complex junctions

local council here (suburban Melbourne, Au) has been working on this issue and they need to I can assure you

Boroodara and Knox councils look at how to sign cycle trails

There does seem to be some bizarre NCN stuff around. I guess it’s a fairly complex mix of ROW permissions, council bureaucracy, trying to stay away from roads at all and “main roads” in particular, NCN 55 goes through monton and takes a fairly convoluted route through residential streets and then you’re told to dismount presumably coz no one would let them build a bike lane across this.

I think Sustrans have my sympathy, they probably work hard at a very difficult job, given that not many other people (seemingly very few in road planning/council departments) give a shit about cycling. So what on the surface looks bloody stupid could actually be the best of a bad job. It’s just a shame that so many NCN and other traffic free cycle routes just seem to end abruptly or go a bit weird and you have to fend for yourself. Most regular riders will dip in and out of NCN and official cycle routes mixed with road, cheek or just none conventional routes, newbies are stuffed tho.

some good stuff antigee. what do we think about signed ETA times? useful or not? there’s a few on leeds liverpool canal near haigh hall, times were definitely aimed at the slow and steady leisure riders, I was undecided on whether distances might have been more useful.

cheers Donk

what do we think about signed ETA times?

think average speeds vary too much ( school hols so rode to café with my daughter this pm and round trip was 3x what I would take and I’m slow – spread is huge) regular and consistent distance signing should work once people are on a trail and think that confirmation you are actually heading in right direction is key to being happy – suggested timings might be best on publicity material for trails

There is (or at least used to be) a good junction on the Trans Pennine Trail somewhere near Barnsley. Two trails intersect, more or less at right angles. Finger post with four fingers, all labelled Trans Pennine Trail. Useless.

Each route needs a distinct name, or none. Trans-Pennine is a shambles, bits crop up at random, which might or might not connect to other bits. Signage which only gives you distance or direction to a tiny village you’ve never heard of, won’t help you pick the correct route from a junction.

Back to Canals and Rivers Trust. How about a website and mapping that tells us what the access is along the bank/towpath. Some banks are private or otherwise have no right of way, some have access but no actual path, some an unmade track, some gravel, some tarmac. I assume the trust already has the info on what’s where, but short of going out and riding it, it’s guesswork until you come to a barrier and need a long detour or a bit of cheek. I quite like finding out with a bit of exploring, but finding out in advance would encourage a lot more use. Families don’t want to have to be diverted on to the roads(even quiet ones) when out for a stress free bimble along the towpath.

I hope its not too much of a thread hijack, but the CRT are currently running a ‘Shared Towpaths’ consultation, including a new proposed Towpath code. There is also a short survey half way down the page.

BTW those metal structures are called Motorbike inhibitors, nominally to stop motorbikes, with the side-effects of annoying everyone else at the same time.

MLC
http://www.cyclestreets.net/
http://www.sustrans.org.uk/ncn/map
have some info,cycle streets journey planner is good but local knowledge will obviously be better, no surface type listing tho, thought there was another site that did that…hmm

I think Sustrans have my sympathy… So what on the surface looks bloody stupid could actually be the best of a bad job.

Yeah I think you pretty much nailed it there. Sustrans are good people in my experience, but the nature of what they do and the general attitude to cycling in this country means they have to be very pragmatic with what they do.

They often accept compromises on the grounds that any cycle route is better than no route at all and once demand and popularity is demonstrated then it is easier to get the council to concede that yeah, maybe the route should go through that other bit after all.

So they are constantly making deals with the devil – which more militant cycling advocates strongly dislike – but that’s why Sustrans actually manage to deliver something while other groups sit and talk about a perfect cycling utopia that is along way off.

FWIW, I support my local cycle campaign for the more militant localised approach, Sustrans for the pragmatic hands-on approach, and CTC for the national political approach. I think we need all three.

what do we think about signed ETA times?

Pretty much exactly what antigee said. Too variable. Distances are good though.

no surface type listing tho, thought there was another site that did that…hmm

CycleStreets uses OpenCycleMap data which does have surface types recorded for some of the paths. Can’t remember if the CycleStreets route finder takes this into account or not. I think it was planned but may not be implemented yet.