WTF?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8586344.stm.

So trained professionals who are supposed to be trusted by the people they provide a service to can now provide poor service based on their beliefs in ancient superstition? This is why religion has no place in modern society.

Oh dear, a sad day for pharmacy 🙁

They should not be forced to go against their beliefs. However I think that if they want to offer a service according to some ancient work of fiction then they should have to walk around wearing a sandwich board with "I believe in fairies" written on both sides.

thats bullshit that is.

can now

Can still, and yet we'd never noticed before that they could.

I'm really, really not sure I care. Roughly how many transactions per million are affected by a pharmacist's convictions? I bet it's almost exactly 3.2.

If they're state employees maybe I care, it'd be pretty boring in an NHS hospital. I don't really understand how pharmacists work, but I've got a suspicion that demanding that an independent chemist sells you whatever you want just because it exists is like insisting that Waterstones sells you Anal Rampage magazine.

as long as they have to say 'because of my personal beliefs i can't sell you blah but you can buy blah from joe bloggs pharmacy which is just down the road' then i don't really see a problem with it. It's wrong to discriminate against peoples beliefs even if they are complete bobbins.

Fair enough really, imo, as long as there's a practical alternative source. No retailer should be forced to vend a product they don't want to. And I'm no supporter of religion.

Political correctness gone mad. You go into the profession surely knowing that you STOCK THOSE ITEMS.

What next? Paramedic refusing go into a pig shed as its against his beliefs? 😉

Go on then

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUspLVStPbk

This bodes well for the Jehovah’s Witnesses Transfusion Service 😉

It's wrong to discriminate against peoples beliefs even if they are complete bobbins.

They are employed to provide a specialist service, where customers require unbiased advice. Moreover, it's worse that their professional governing body is allowing this, as opposed to individuals refusing off their own bat. There is enough stigma about family planning in this country as it is.

To follow your line of thought to completion, does this mean that it would also be discriminatory for me to be refused a job as a Catholic Priest, simply because I don't believe in God? I'm pretty sure I could easily spout condescending rambles based on sometimes dubious morals for an hour or so every Sunday…

…religion has no place in modern society.

What does that mean? I won't invoke Godwin's law this early….

Anyway, I can't see that anyone should be able to make a privately held retailer sell something however it does seem odd that if the retailer has something to sell then an employee can refuse to sell it even when there's no other employee present. I suggest that the employer should be able to make it a condition of employment that an employee is happy to sell anything the retailer stocks.

Off topic I know, but have you noticed that Anal Rampage magazine is a lot thinner than it used to be?

There's a lot less adverts than can be found in What Dildo or Buttplug Today though.

Political correctness gone mad. You go into the profession surely knowing that you STOCK THOSE ITEMS.

What next? Paramedic refusing go into a pig shed as its against his beliefs?

What's political correctness got to do with it? Funnily, political correctness doesn't normally take Christian beliefs into account. And, no you don't need to STOCK THOSE ITEMS. Like any retailer, you stock what you want.

Hora, the paramedic analogy is ludicrous. How about 'What next. Corner store refusing to sell cigarettes, as he thinks they're dangerous?

What does that mean?

Exactly that. Religion has no place in modern society. The precursor to Godwin's law has nothing to do with it, he wanted extermination of a race (or three). A bit similar to some extremist views by hard stance religious leaders actually….

Tea&Medals

+ 1

. How about 'What next. Corner store refusing to sell cigarettes, as he thinks they're dangerous?

I think a more accurate analogy would be a tobacconist refusing to sell cigarettes, as he thinks they're dangerous 😉

…religion has no place in modern society.

Evidence?

That looks like a belief-based assertion to me. Typical of the society we live in.

How about someone in WH Smiths refusing to sell you 'Zoo', 'Nuts', or FHM et al?

Evidence?

Quite. You show me some credible evidence that religion has a truly factual grounding.

Then I'll happily demonstrate why the main thing it's lauded for – morals – can happily exist without any religious views whatsoever.

Religion relies on 'trust me on this mate' with no proof.

Funny how all the miracles happened many many many years ago isnt it?

Man really is a funny animal.

Funnily enough, I feel myself coming down on the side of the (tiny number of, and possibly only hypothetical) observant Catholic pharmacists here.

IF they're in private business (i.e. not a pharmacist in a hospital etc) and they're not discriminating against a type of customer on an unethical basis, shouldn't they be allowed to decide what they will and won't sell on the basis of their loopy beliefs?

If a Muslim butcher doesn't want to sell pork because it goes against his religious beliefs, should he be forced to?

If Asda doesn't want to sell the explicit version of Lily Allen's CD because it goes against their "family values", should they be forced to?

If a mid-40s, male pattern balding, Audi-driving, MTBing architect 😉 doesn't want to design a new church for the Catholic Church because it goes against his athiest beliefs, should he be forced to?

Or is there something essentially different about pharmacy as a profession than butchery, architecture and greengrocery? I dunno.

Funny how all the miracles happened many many many years ago isnt it?

1961 is not all that long ago… http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_MacKillop

Or is there something essentially different about pharmacy as a profession than butchery, architecture and greengrocery?

Yes, there is. A Pharmacist's job is to provide unbiased advice. A better comparison with an architect would be to dangerously design a church based on his views…

Religion relies on 'trust me on this mate' with no proof.

I've not got the time or the inclination, but I am going to suggest having a read of Terry Eagleton's book "Reason, Fairht and Revolution". Eagleton is an atheist, but his ideas about what christian theology is actually about are rather interesting. Anyone wishing to get beyond hora's level of understanding of the issue would do well to read it. It's quite short and the writing is fairly large, certainly in the hardback edition. 🙂

Linky:

The "conscience clause" itself doesn't mention religion it only mentions conscience. People are allowed to make their own decisions whether they are religious or not. (You don't even need Dawkins to tell you what to believe.)

Emergency Hormonal Contraception is sold by pharmacists to prevent pregnancy after unprotected sex but a similar drug could be used to force abortion of a fetus.

I've pinched this next bit from another forum from a similar thread.

"Abort a fetus a week or so before it's due to be born anyway – murder probably.

Abort a fetus at a time when it probably wouldn't be able to live – murder perhaps.

Abort a fetus well before it could possibly survive – killing something human.

Abort an emplanted embrio – disruption of the creation of a human being.

Prevent the emplantation of an embrio – prevent the creation of a (already defined) new human being.

Prevent sperm and egg from fusing (e.g. condom, condemned by the Catholic church remember) – prevent the creation of a unique human being.

Prevent donors of egg and sperm from enabling them to fuse (e.g. two people on opposite sides of the world are not allowed to meet) – prevent circumstances in which a human embrio could be created.

Where do you draw the line?"

At some point you have to make a decision based on your own conscience.

Man really is a funny animal.

As evidenced by your existence hora.

Like BD, I'm not sure I give a shit really. It would be one thing if pharmacies were the only place to buy birth control but every supermarket and two bit cornershop has them these days. Getting into a big crazy froth about religionists just makes them dig their heels in further.

does this mean i can stop cutting drunks out of cars or just leave druggies houses to burn as i dont believe what they do is right?

Is it the pharmacist here or the member of staff that's the issue?
This sounds like it's a result of that woman who wouldn't sell a customer some birth control pills because of her religious beliefs. Now as far as I'm concerned, if a member of staff can't do part of their job for whatever reason, then they're not suitable for the role, there's the door. These things aren't launched on these people unexpectedly, they know there is going to be a conflict of beliefs at some point.

If you went for a job claiming that you could fly a fighter jet and then later on it turned out you couldn't, you'd get sacked.

If however it's for the entire pharmacist then fine, they can sell or not sell what they want, people should vote with their feet and not go there.

does this mean i can stop cutting drunks out of cars or just leave druggies houses to burn as i dont believe what they do is right?

Even more accurate – what if you stopped cutting Jews out of cars because you were a Muslim and objected to their crimes in Palestine?

A Pharmacist's job is to provide unbiased advice.

No such thing.

Wasn't long ago there was a huge fuss over some pharmacists supplying/prescribing the pill, morning after pill and condoms to underage kids. That looks pretty biased to me.

in the normal circumstance failure to supply the pill or condoms could hardly be construed as 'dangerous'.

does this mean i can stop cutting drunks out of cars or just leave druggies houses to burn as i dont believe what they do is right?

Post of the year.

. Eagleton is an atheist, but his ideas about what christian theology

I just had a look on amazon, and the first review says Eagleton is an amazing combination of Catholic believer and Marxis.
Now I'm slightly confused.

Post of the year.

No way. That would definitely be one of yours hora. 😀

Like BD, I'm not sure I give a shit really. It would be one thing if pharmacies were the only place to buy birth control but every supermarket and two bit cornershop has them these days. Getting into a big crazy froth about religionists just makes them dig their heels in further.

Not quite, I doubt you can get morning-after pills from Tescos.

If however it's for the entire pharmacist then fine, they can sell or not sell what they want, people should vote with their feet and not go there.

Not quite. If a very nervous 15 year old girl goes in, and gets told emergency contraception is wrong because of the Pharmacist's religious beliefs, which are supported by their professional governing body, what happens then. Perhaps she has an abortion 2 months down the line when she finally tells her parents, or maybe she becomes a mum at 15. Yes, that's much better for her.

Ian – he states that he is an atheist and he is certainly a marxist. He's a good read. 🙂

i was going to say similar zokes but didnt want a real flaming. See what i did there with the flame thing 🙂

If however it's for the entire pharmacist then fine, they can sell or not sell what they want, people should vote with their feet and not go there.

Voting with your feet is fine if you have another chemist's near, if you live out in the country that may not be the case.