A couple of days ago, we had a thread on “Christian values” which, true to form, was in places a really interesting discussion and in others the usual theist / atheist mud-slinging. One of the things that fell out of that was religion and tolerance for others.

I’ve just stumbled across this little blog. “A single dad” talks, objectively, about just this. It’s not really about religion so much as, ah, well, just read it. It’s fairly lengthy, but emotive and poignant. IMHO.

http://www.danoah.com/2011/11/im-christian-unless-youre-gay.html

Go on, read it, then come back to me.

Done that? Good. Right.

The blog later received a follow-up email from a ‘mom’ for whom the post became unexpectedly relevant. This post is here. Go read it.

http://www.danoah.com/2012/04/a-teens-brave-response-to-im-christian-unless-youre-gay.html

I’m not posting this particularly to spark a conversation, and I’m not going to comment much more just now for ‘spoilers’ reasons. But I’d urge both atheists and Christians to go take a look at it, as I think it’s a really touching story which deals with a belief system and extremist bigotry and discovers what’s actually important.

Is there an Executive Summary ?

I posted the original post in the “we Christians” thread. The follow up was a great read too. Thanks for posting it.

Is there an Executive Summary

Be nice to people. Nothing else is really important.

Nice find Cougar, although I suspect that it’s a bit USA-centric.

if you can hear god or Jesus talking to you its likely that you have a sever mental illness and should seek help.

Be nice to people. Nothing else is really important.

very true, you don’t need to have Christian (or another religions) values to live by that law though.

I suspect that it’s a bit USA-centric.

Oh, undoubtedly. The response in particular is very ‘god hates fags’ bible belt America.

Retrospectively, can I add that if you’ve not read the article you don’t get to pass comment.

Fact is – if you believe in the bible you also have to believe that being gay is wrong – it is there in black-and-white – can’t deny it. Plus you can’t have women priests.

I posted the original post in the “we Christians” thread.

Mia culpa, I didn’t see that. I hope you’ll agree though it’s worth repeating.

Read them both, so ner…

It does a good job, in USA-centric trems of bringing home the fact that the things you subscribe to as part of your pillar of the community thing can impact very much on you. Essentially that the political/social/religious is also the personal, which some people would do well to reflect on.

Having said that, our very own barnsleymitch does exactly the same for us; the last two big religious threads on here have ended with Mrs barnsleymitches breasts being pressed into service, so to speak…

Tolerance is always worth repeating.

Cardinal Keith O’Brien will say Christians should wear a cross on their clothes every day as “a symbol of their beliefs”, in his Easter Sunday homily.

The head of the Catholic Church in Scotland will call on Christians to make the cross “more prominent in their lives”.

Speaking at Edinburgh’s St Mary’s Cathedral tomorrow, he will tell them to “wear proudly a symbol of the cross of Christ on their garments each and every day of their lives”.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/cardinal-keith-o-brien-to-call-on-christians-to-wear-the-cross-1-2220786

That’s handy. It’ll be easier to avoid them.

I’ve often wondered if anything in the bible can be proved.
Does any of it tie in with factual history?

I’ve often wondered if anything in the bible can be proved.
Does any of it tie in with factual history?

well if you put a quote from the bible in a peer reviewed history article its unlikely to get published. They will tell you that you are a moron and put it in a bin.

Parts of the stories do tie in with recorded historical events, like Pontius Pilate releasing a prisoner, but the Jesus bit of the story is only added in the bible.

One of the things about religion that I do find interesting, is the way often practical ways of living at the time, ie avoiding certain diseased meats, wearing skull caps in the blazing sun etc has become dogma.

Reality and fantasy have frequently become intertwined.

I suspect that it’s a bit USA-centric.

That was my initial thought too, which gave me a smug absolving sense of satisfaction. But it isn’t, and if you think it is, then it seems to me that you’ve missed a vital point which it’s trying to make.

The christian verses gays thing is just an example, which in this particular case works well within a US culture context, but not so well at all within a British culture context. But the central message is about accepting people who our different to ourselves. And pointing out that there will always people who will have their own reasons to hate you too, however perfect you might think you are.

So the same principle can be applied to trailer trash, drug addicts, people with religious views, fatties, pikies, toffs, people on benefit, Scots, viewers of the X factor, left-handed ginger-haired northerners, etc. The same principle can be applied to British society and any other society.

No ernie, I get the point entirely. I was suggesting that the ‘landscape’ if you will was very USA-centric; that kind of community is less common in the UK, largely thanks to our flawed yet noticeable sense of tolerance and acceptance.

Yes of course the landscape was US centric, the geezer is a yank ffs. But don’t tell me that British society is significantly more tolerant than US society – I won’t believe you. Plenty of prejudices are revealed on a daily basis on this forum for starters. And it’s probably a relatively fairly tolerant place, although sometimes I have my doubts.

Because British society is more tolerant, which is more likely due to that British sense of ‘don’t make a fuss, there’s a good chap’, we have allowed people who are superficially different to the British stereotype to settle and flourish. I understand what you are saying, but I feel that society in the UK is more tolerant than that of small town USA. Your mileage may vary.

but I feel that society in the UK is more tolerant than that of small town USA.

Of course it is. Specially in the case of fairly isolated communities in a huge country. But can you say that applies equally when you are comparing a US city with a small close knit British community ? Can people who are “different” expect the same level of acceptance ?

Besides, you’re missing the point. The level of intolerance isn’t the issue here, it’s the fact that it exists. No one can claim that it doesn’t exist in British society.

I think that ‘small close knit British’ communities are less common than in the US, and that our relatively recent history allied to a smaller overall number of people and a more homogenous population in terms of media have combined to give us a situation where we are more tolerant of difference.

I’m not suggesting that things are good, or even ok, but I do feel that we are a more tolerant society in general than the US considered as a whole.

I feel that society in the UK is more tolerant than that of small town USA.

Apples and oranges, you can’t directly compare a nation to a small town.

Small town UK isn’t overly dissimilar to small town USA, there’s just less of it.

Does any of it tie in with factual history

it can’t do.

if it’s a proven fact you have no need for faith and “without faith it is impossible to please god” (hebrews 11:6)

bit like the old babel fish arguemnt

I’m thinking I might write something. I’m not particularly religious but, I was outed and I know what it feels like to be that kid. TBH ernie’s pretty spot on, it can be a bit rubbish sometimes, and trust me I didn’t want some of the shit I had in my life.

I’m trying, but I’m not good at this sort of shit. If anything this says what I want to:

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4a4MR8oI_B8[/video]

sorry

That was some pretty interesting reading, thanks Cougar and it more or less mirrors my feelings on the matter. The thing that gets to me though is when people say things like

Fact is – if you believe in the bible you also have to believe that being gay is wrong – it is there in black-and-white – can’t deny it.

It’s true that you can’t deny it, anyone who chooses to read the bible will see it, but more importantly to me is the quote ‘let he who is without sin cast the first stone’ or inother words ‘don’t judge people unless your perfect yourself’. None of us are perfect, the bible also says that or words to that effect, so I don’t see what right anyone has to judge anyone else.

The fact is though that intolerance exists, even in places you’d (hopefully) least expect it. I’ve thankfully never met an intolerant church minister although I have met some pretty intolerant people who regularly attend church, people who would look down on you if you wore casual clothes to church for example. It’s the intolerance in this attitude which really annoys me, but it’s not just religious people who are intolerant, if you read through the ‘we christians’ thread from a couple of days ago you’d be able to see it. I guess what I’m trying to say though, and what the blog is getting at, is that if these intolerant attidudes aren’t challenged then they are not going to go away and more people like the boy in the reply to the blog are going to end up living miserable lives which is just plain wrong.

sorry

Please don’t be.

Some people are assholes.

It’s easy to be intolerant when you have a book behind you – but why are MPs in this country against Gay Marriage?

I believe I answered that in my previous post.

pfft (:

Emsz, don’t be sorry, be proud.
And happy, that’s the biggie isn’t it?

When you look at most other countries, the tolerance & acceptance shown by the British, especially the strides we’ve made since WW2 are quite remarkable.

The last 60 odd years have been a remarkable social experiment in inclusion.
Even though it looks like we might abandon the health and education side of it, hopefully the social inclusion regarding racial predjudice and homophobia is here to stay.
We might just have to struggle to maintain even those benefits, but I hope not.

“Fact is – if you believe in the bible you also have to believe that being gay is wrong

I feel a bit uncomfortable with this statement. Clearly there are loads of Christians who aren’t homophobic. Are you saying that they can’t be a Christian unless they are homophobic? I don’t think that’s a healthy point of view. I’d rather the church evolved with the views of these people influencing it tbh.

Thing is the original blog made no comment on the right or wrong of being gay. It was all about how you treat people you believe are doing something wrong whether it be being gay, worshiping the wrong god or none at all or even riding a singlespeed.

That’s the key. Don’t act towards people with hate even if you think they’re wrong. Sadly we see a lot of that sad, lazy, destructive demonisaton of people even down to sillyness of being left or right wing in politics. Demonisation of people makes it easier to dehumanise them and keep people apart.

http://gaychristian.net/

Ernie, would you still love Che if he’d been a Marxist gaylord?

I have inlaws in the US who are very christian and quite far to the right. In the same family one of the cousins is gay and there’s never any issue made of anything. They’ve quite happily separated what the book says and what their morality says. Equally I have very christian friends in the UK who also accept gay friends at their weddings, christenings, homes etc.

Whilst a lot of Christians are intolerant, intolerance is not a result of christianity. It’s a result of small mindedness. There are plenty of non-religious bigots to go around too.

Don’t act towards people with hate even if you think they’re wrong.

It’s a lot more complicated than that. If you dying of aids in Africa because stupid religious dogma has prevented the distribution of condoms. If your poor, have lost your job and are struggling to feed your family, while the right wing politicians and media blame you for the financial meltdown and may you pay the biggest penalties. If your gay and are told you are evil and a sinner and outcast from your community. If your a rape victim who is blamed for then punished for the crime.

Then there is a reason for the hatred, a cause of the hatred, and such statements are used to get the victims to just accept there lot as if its all their fault. Well sometimes the hatred is needed to drive the changes and end the stupidity, the hypocrisy and the lies against the real victims. We shouldn’t just lie down and take all the crap that is dished out against the weakest and most vulnerable members of society.

actually it was that simple. the original blog wasn’t trying to solve problems at the level you’re talking about.

So its simple as long as we ignore the complexity.

you’re taking the point further than the blog poster did. all he said was to deal directly with people in a non-hateful way. Eg be nice to people and everyone will be happier.

You’re trying to take it to the point of dealing with bigger issues that religion creates.