derelict industrial land – that sort of thing then fine.

Come on TJ, I don't want to ride my bike in some kind of post-apocalyptic concrete jungle. I learnt to appreciate woodland by playing in it as a youngster. I plan to continue that.

Sorry TJ, I know you want it to be black and white but it isn't.

I'm afraid it is pretty black and white, you're the one that's wrong. Building jumps on someone elses land is illegal and shows a complete disregard for the people managing the land both in terms of the practical damage done and the potential liability you've created.

YOU DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO TAMPER WITH OTHER PEOPLES LAND AGAINST THEIR WILL.

That's incorrect. It IS our land, the FC only manage it on our behalf (and make a tidy profit).

No they manage it on behalf of the government which is very different from the managing it on behalf of the public. The MOD manages all sorts of land across the country in it's duties for the government. Like to see you trying to build jumps in the middle of an army base or an airfield. On second thoughts it might be nice to see RichPenny try in the middle of a live fire range, see how his I don't give a sh1t about anyone else ethics stand up to unexploded ordanance.

I learnt to appreciate woodland by playing in it as a youngster. I plan to continue that.

And if you continue to with the sort of attitude you've shown on here tonight we'll all end up suffering. There are enough people in the FC who don't like bikes and would happily restrict access. You also asked about peoples experience when commenting on this. I've spent today building trails in my local FC forest. Only difference is I was there volunteering my time in partnership with the FC guy on the ground. That way we end up with sustainable long term trails for a lot more people to use and enjoy.

The FC guy we're working with has been brilliant but he's still ahd to do a lot himself to the trails up and running and has had to overcome internal apathy and disinterest from within the the FC. People behaving in the way you're condining just make his job harder.

I think you have issues stumpyjon. Have you considered an anger management course?

I'm afraid it is pretty black and white

So not actually black and white then? Legally, you are correct. Morally, I am.

Rich – we may be slighty at cross puropses – I was talking about what the OP refered to as "local woodland" you are talking about a "scrubby bit of land next to a road"

Is the land you refer to a local resources used by many? Or a bit of "Derelict / brownfield land"

Thats where the moral difference lies IMO.

Wasteland – ok – local wooodland – treat with care.

Legally, you are correct. Morally, I am.

Well I agree on the first point and don't on the second.

So not actually black and white then?

and that's just childish and pedantic.

I think you have issues stumpyjon.

Yes I have issues, I don't like people arrogantly digging up the countryside causing grief for the land owner and making bikers relations with other countryside users any worse than they currently are.

The MOD manages all sorts of land across the country in it's duties for the government. Like to see you trying to build jumps in the middle of an army base or an airfield.

Some of their training areas have continuous public access and there are some good legal trails. Not sure if this is 100% true. I was told that during a concealment exercise a squaddie, who was well concealed, got run over by a mountain biker. The very apologetic rider then spoke to the training sgt at the bottom of the hill. The sgt said, did he move or make a noise? The reply was no. The sgt said good, he's passed!

TJ, where I've worked is not at Lordswood. It's a strip of land, it is wooded but not logged. As I said, a friend of a friend was granted permission years ago. Treat with care – agree. No rubbish left, no damage to live trees, work with what already exists etc.

And if you continue to with the sort of attitude you've shown on here tonight we'll all end up suffering.

I'd have sufferred as a child if the people who built our bmx tracks in the woods hadn't bothered.

I don't like people arrogantly digging up the countryside causing grief for the land owner and making bikers relations with other countryside users any worse than they currently are.

And if you read my posts, you'd learn that I'm not doing that. Look, I'm happy for you that you've got the FC on side. If after 3 years he wasn't, what would you be doing now? From my experiences, biker relations locally are, with one exception, positive.

If the trails/jumps arent provided by the council/FC people are going to build them, thats the way it is and IMO, the way it should be. Its also a free way for the FC to find out where to build trails!

I have to admit, I have a tollerance for what kids build out of the dirt in schools hols. If I find it, I usually try to ride it and enjoy it, so that makes me complicit. I then get slightly depressed watching it gradually get destroyed by the landowner or dog walkers/other users, it might even be me that is envolved in destroying it for the greater good of local trail building. But, I take a measured view. I will play on most things others have built, even if I wouldn't have done it myself. Occassionally, I would question someones building and not ride it, for various reasons.

On a practical level, I don't understand why anyone would want to spend hours or days building stuff which has a good chance of being destroyed by the land owner/manager (or other users) shortly after. It just seems a waste of time and effort.

Personally, I build on land which has permission so my efforts are not wasted. I probably spend more time building trails than riding my bike these days.