Talkemada - I was getting medieval on your arse with the whey faced poltroon thing. Now say five hail Kylies and stop whingeing!
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If you're looking for class war, just read Cameron's policies
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Posted 2 years ago #
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Hail Kylie
Hail Kylie
Hail Kylie
Hail Kylie
Hail KylieCan I go now?
Posted 2 years ago # -
Yes. And fasten your trousers - cheekybadboy!
Posted 2 years ago # -
"Ok, enlighten me. How does a working class person become middle class"
Exactly like my dad did. Came from a classic working class background, worked his balls off for 20 years, travelled, broadened his horizons, got qualifications, tried other things. There's still a wee Leith hardnut in him but it's just part of who he is. DEFINATELY middle class now, he owned a Passat estate
Posted 2 years ago # -
Came from a classic working class background, worked his balls off for 20 years, travelled, broadened his horizons, got qualifications, tried other things
I think you'll find that quite a few working class types work their balls off - I certainly have. And yes I've got some qualifications. Although I've always found building sites close enough not to need to travel - does mean I haven't made it into the middle-classes ?
Posted 2 years ago # -
You do talk a load of balls sometimes Ernie
Of course I'm not saying that's the only way to do it... it's just how he did it. But Trail_monkey seems to think it can't be done at all, so I'm giving him a nice simple example of one person who's done it. Go argue with someone who disagrees with you!
Posted 2 years ago # -
I was always shocked whilst studying Economics just how little movement between socio-economic groupings there really is. The majority of people will only ever achieve what their parents have. If anything the only real trend is for a downward migration.
What's more shocking is the myopia sufferred by anyone not in the top 1% of earners when contemplating voting Tory. Yes your wallet may feel a little fatter initially, but if you can't afford the private luxuries of dave and his etonian chums, you'll suffer in the long run, and so will future generations of your family. But hey ho, he is bloody charming.
Posted 2 years ago # -
You do talk a load of balls sometimes Ernie
Thank you ........I try my best
TBH I've not been following the thread - it's just that "hard work = not working class" touches my class warrior sensitivities. What with the toiling classes producing society's material wealth and all.
"Go argue with someone who disagrees with you!"
Gets boring after a while. Arguing with someone who agrees with me, somehow seems more challenging.
Posted 2 years ago # -
I never said anything like "hard work = not working class" tbh.
Posted 2 years ago # -
So he worked his balls off for 20 years and then decided to stop all this "hard work" nonsense and became middle-class ?
Cool
Posted 2 years ago # -
Didn't say anything like that either
Posted 2 years ago # -
why would any right minded person want to aspire to be middle class? Send your children to private school, live in a 5 bedroom detached house with a double garage, drive a totally impractible 4x4 to the private school if you must to prove how successfull/happy you are but why would you wish to be recognised as being "middle class"? You must be pretty insecure.
Posted 2 years ago # -
I don't want to get embroiled in an internet debate about class, fascinating as I really do find the subject.
I just want to say that I involuntarily shouted the C-word at George Osbourne when he came on the news this evening.
And I've never read the Morning Star in my life.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Class is much better defined by whether you own and/or control the means of production or you have nothing to sell but your labour power. Vague status-based (Weberian) definitions only serve to conceal the fact that you can just as easily be sacked and impoverished as the person who pushes the broom. I'm proudly working class, all my family have degrees and I own a detatched house with a double garage...but it's only stuff and it wouldn't gain you access to the Bullingdon Club.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Class is much better defined by whether you own and/or control the means of production or you have nothing to sell but your labour power.
Whilst your employment status is undoubtedly the most important defining characteristic of class, it is by no means the only one. Your level of education, whether you sell your intellectual skills or manual skills, your level of income, your property ownership status, all contribute the level of freedom and power (including economic power) which you enjoy. And therefore, are all defining characteristics of class.
"I'm proudly working class"
No one should be ashamed of whatever social class they find themselves in - I certainly am not (and applying the above criteria I am 100% working class) It is how we behave towards other human beings, which is the defining characteristic of what sort of person we are.
Posted 2 years ago # -
National debt is currently
£900,000,000,000
Public sector employment went from 40% of the adult working total in 1997 to 60% today.
Go figure where we need to start trimming back.
I was talking to a Customer Service Manager for a specific section of a certain Hospital not so long ago. Why does it need a CS Manager who also gets a company car?
Posted 2 years ago # -
I was born and brought up on a council estate. My dad was a miner (as I was for a while), my mam was a nurse. Now I'm a nurse, my wife's an OT. My older kids went to uni. I own my own house in a 'nice' area, I occasionally go to the theatre, even to the opera if it's something I like (no Wagner, thank you very much). However, I also still enjoy going to the rugby (league), and the occasional pint with my mates. Now, I always think of myself as working class, but realise that my current 'lifestyle' might say otherwise. Is there even such a thing as 'working class' anymore ?. Your's, confused of Barnsley.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Public sector employment went from 40% of the adult working total in 1997 to 60% today.
Where did you get that figure from?
Posted 2 years ago # -
Public sector employment went from 40% of the adult working total in 1997 to 60% today.
Do you actually believe that nonsense hora ?
And even if it was remotely true, it would just represent meaningless figures.
Because so what ? If it was 70,80,or 90 percent, what different would it make ?
You obviously apply the logic of a retard who reads the Sun, and automatically assumes that anyone employed in the pubic sector doesn't do any work. Do you think all the employees of the RBS stopped working when their bank became publicly owned ? It is the amount of people who are engaged in productive work which is important. And that applies as much to the private sector as it does to the public sector.
Posted 2 years ago # -
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=1292
20% ish in 2005
Posted 2 years ago # -
Go figure where we need to start trimming back.
So, even if your figures were true, how d'you propose creating employment for all those Public Sector workers who won't have jobs after these cuts are made?
If you worked in the public sector, and your job was on the line (meaning potential difficulty supporting your family, paying your mortgage etc), would you be so flippant?
[EDIT] Hora's not even close. Embarrassing.
Posted 2 years ago # -
I dont't understand class, or the caste system or any other such bollox. it just seems to be a way to have a massive chip on your shoulder, whichever clan you aspire to belong to. Be proud of who you are and don't give a **** what others think, why live you life trying to match or fight against others perceptions? That's their issue if they are sad ****s who have to define themselves and others by a perceived social hierarchy.
Posted 2 years ago # -
It's hardly worth pointing out that 99% of this thread is completely **** irrelevant because "class war" has sod all to do with whippets and Waitrose, and more to do with who sells labour and who owns the means of production, and which group's interests the state serves.
But I did enjoy the bit where someone got called nouveau riche.
Think about it (even if it is a struggle).
Posted 2 years ago # -
Knoabunny, I think it's more that 99% of the thread is relevant and the 1% that isn't is the title
Posted 2 years ago # -
Although I haven't read much of this thread at all konabunny, I'm pretty sure that the OP was referring in social classes as generally defined by sociologists, anthropologists, political economists, and social historians, and in the context of the British class system. Not, as defined by Marx in his theory of the historical nature of the class struggle. I'm fairly certain that Marx never talked about "class war".
Posted 2 years ago # -
I'm pretty sure that the OP was referring in social classes as generally defined by sociologists, anthropologists, political economists, and social historians, and in the context of the British class system.
Actually I just nicked the title of the article from the Independent.
Posted 2 years ago # -
I'm seriously considering voting for the lib dems. Is there any "smack you in the face" reason I shouldn't? Have I missed something?
Edit; I may be better off voting tory just to get rid because I really want rid of liebor?Posted 2 years ago # -
So, ernie/fred/talkemada: you didn't read the thread or the original article but you still think blah blah blah? Well...RTFA, then! It's all about how the state structures tax and whether it favours the rich or whether it benefits the poor.
The Institute of Fiscal Studies just published a long-term study of how Labour's tax changes have affected different classes, compared to the last Tory government. It found that the richest 10 per cent have seen their incomes cut by 9 per cent, to pay for an increase in the incomes of the poorest 10 per cent. A rich man has lost on average £25,000 a year; a poor woman has gained on average £1,700 a year. I have seen these changes among my own family and friends: gaining £1,700 is the difference between struggling to pay the bills, or being able to give your kids a summer holiday.
Posted 2 years ago # -
chakaping - Member
I don't want to get embroiled in an internet debate about class, fascinating as I really do find the subject.
I just want to say that I involuntarily shouted the C-word at George Osbourne when he came on the news this evening.
And I've never read the Morning Star in my life.
I normally just mouth "Oik" with a slight smirk on my face...
Posted 2 years ago # -
I'm seriously considering voting for the lib dems. Is there any "smack you in the face" reason I shouldn't? Have I missed something?
Depends on your constituency and what you want to happen.If you're in a safe seat, it probably doesn't matter which way you vote.
If you're in a Lab/Con contested seat, voting Lib Dem might not achieve anything.
If you're in a Lab/Lib contested seat, voting Lib Dem is the better way to get rid of Labour.But if you get rid of Labour and the Lib Dems won't be a moderating force on either as a coalition partner, you could end up with an untrammelled Tory govt. Not a good idea imo but you and others may differ.
Posted 2 years ago # -
For me:
- single rate of tax - say 25-33% (the rate is pretty irrelevent)
- NI at 10% with 5% straight into an individual money purchase pension and 5% into the NHS
- a tax code set at the minimum level deemed enough for a single person to live on - £10k? - and benefit to get to that level if not earnt
- child benefit covering the (additional) cost of a child - £30pw
- VAT at 15%
- benefits at a level that covers people, but not at a level I'd want to live at
- reduce housing benefit, to 50% of current, and have rent restrictionsAnd all administered by the same dept/systems.
What is wrong at the moment (and this has been highlighted by the Tory married tax issue), is that a couple with one earner on £20k is paying over £2500pa in tax - and probably getting the same (at least) back in benefits/credits etc.
Posted 2 years ago # -
So, ernie/fred/talkemada: you didn't read the thread or the original article but you still think blah blah blah?
Did I read it ? ......did I f*ck ! I took one look at it and concluded that it would probably be rather tedious and pointless to read. I've restricted my comments to responses to posts such as hora'a halfwit comment about public sector employment. Like you, I haven't noticed anyone using Marx's definition of class nor arguing in context of it's historical role. But I'm not sure why you only want to talk about class in the Marxist sense. Does Hari even mention Marx ?
BTW, RE : "ernie/fred/talkemada"
You always catch me out mate ! I never seem to be able to pull the wool over your eyes, you razor sharp man you.
But you wait and see ..... I will one day.Posted 2 years ago # -
Does Hari even mention Marx ?
Does he mention whippets, claret, supper v dinner and other social class shibboleths?(Private Eye does a good line in tracking Hari's fantasist tendencies).
Posted 2 years ago # -
is it right that anyone should aquire power and influence by virtue of their birth and not through there own merit?
Posted 2 years ago # -
is it right that anyone should aquire power and influence by virtue of their birth and not through there own merit?
No, its not right, but you'll have to look at the history and the immediate future of this country to get a complete answer. Acquiring power by virtue of birth doesn't only apply to the "upper classes" either.
Posted 2 years ago #
Topic Closed
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