What is your underlying issue OP?

It was posted very clealy in my orignal post.

this numpty decided issue a polemic as to why there was a reason parity would never be achieved?

Obviously you haven’t read his paper (I have). His ‘paper’, which was well researched and backed up by data, suggested a number of things, one of which was that perhaps completely equal representation might not be possible because differences between men and women.

That’s not hostility towards women that just a hypothesis. I don’t know why you would want to subjugate the real discussion and move it to something else. But given that this guy got fired, I would suggest that the open hostility is not towards women, but towards anyone who challenges the received orthodoxy.

Isn’t the real point that in an environment where diversity at tech firms has been identified as an issue

Well the issue is that we don’t have 50/50 representation; perhaps the more relevant question is, why given equality of opportunity do we not see equality of outcome.

The argument is that while we should aim for this, don’t be surprised if we don’t reach it because of these other variables that are not down to bias or discrimination.

I have provided evidence of the so called “large innovative” software tech companies founded by male.

Ya, no questions about the ability that women can do software coding but how good are they? Where are the software tech companies founded by female? Nyet, nada, zilt, nothing noticeable. 😯

Web design? 😆

Obvious is obvious …

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjjydz40rNI[/video]

Ya, no questions about the ability that women can do software coding but how good are they?

you should stop here as it pretty obvious that you know nothing about this subject. Here’s a list of some famous and significant names :

https://anitaborg.org/insights-tools/infographics/famous-women-in-computing/

Helen Greiner – cofounder of iRobot answers one of your questions.

more at wikipedia :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_computing

Obviously you haven’t read his paper (I have). His ‘paper’, which was well researched and backed up by data,

Yeah you’ll have to list those data, the onus is you or you are just posting unverified opinion

In the real world, that lower level of agreeableness tends to make men more likely to chose jobs that focused on ‘things’ rather than people and in women the exact reverse is true

And then you find that as you gain seniority, the “things” matter a lot less and your job becomes more about people.

I’m a chartered engineer (with 9% of engineers in the UK being women, it is pretty male dominated). We have a lot of men who have reached positions of some seniority based on their success with things, the problem is that they are totally shite with people.

But then we force social stereotypes on people from such an early age. I’ve been shopping with my kids for shoes this morning. My two girls are just about to start school. Among the school shoes, virtually all of the girls ones are little more than glorified ballet shoes. Not ideal for the Scottish summer, let alone winter, and crap for playing football in the playground. Boys shoes are all nice and sturdy all round shoes, girls ones are more like dress shoes. What hope do they have when they are pigeon holed so early?

What hope do they have when they are pigeon holed so early?

So what you are saying is that your parenting skills are so poor that you have allowed the world around them to influence them more than you, and your partner ? Sounds a bit glass-half-empty to me.

kimbers

or you are just posting unverified opinion

Whereas you (and everyone else lining up to attack the author of a memo they clearly didn’t read) are posting lazy ad hominem attacks, personal insults, mischaracterisations and lies.

sexist moron

I find the OPs desire to belittle women using “science” as odious as I find the commentator he is defending
IMHO you are a sexist and worse you think its everyone else is one as you think women are different by which you mean lesser.

an entitled, rich, silicon-valley nerd.

a whiny entitled cockbag

hate-filled right-wing nut job who believes all that crap

he ran off to do interviews with some alt-right talk radio trolls straight after, only confirms that he’s a Muppet in my non-professionally assessment.

the manifesto of insecure **** who’s propped up his Milo yianopolis (sp?) Spoonfed Conspiracy theories with a few hours browsing Wikipedia

However, I also believe, as do a lot of other people, that the differences cannot be 100% explained just by bias.
…
However most tech companies are sausage fests and continue to be so.
…
It is entirely possible (indeed far more likely given the date range) that the decline in the ratio is because the number of men chosing computer science has risen by a much higher factor than women.

I wonder why that might be.

In unrelated news, here’s a photo a friend of mine took earlier today.

But then we force social stereotypes on people from such an early age.

Indeed.

There may be a genetic link that means more men are likely to have the personality disorders required to be good in that field, or there may not.

As an aside here: research into ASD has historically been vastly weighted towards understanding males on the spectrum. ASD in females is poorly understood and almost certainly massively underdiagnosed.

11 pages. By page 7 it’s just cougar, junky, kimbers and chewkw participating.

I’m rather shocked and appalled by way too many comments in this thread. There’s a miserable mix of people either agreeing that women are somehow “less fit” to work in tech or that the bigotry they face (and they do face it) doesn’t exist.

Seriously, if you can’t read back and see that, you need to open your eyes, ears and, especially, minds. 🙄

Rachel

I also don’t think that it will ever be as close to social as not to matter. You cannot possible dismiss 2 million years of biology as being indifferent to the outcome.

I wouldn’t dismiss the biology side (though nature/nurture isn’t exactly a debate with a conclusion), I’m just not sure you can separate the two in any meaningful way in this sort of case, it’s “easy” on an individual basis but, what not when it’s essentially species wide.

To me the difficulty is this:

I believe in evolution.
I believe what separates us from a banana is a direct result of response to environmental stimulus.
For a very long time our environment has been social as well as physical.
For the last few hundred years it’s been almost entirely social, art least in western society.
We’ve developed the biology we have as a result of social niche and requirements at least as much as physical.
For a very long time our society has pushed men and women in different directions.
The diversion between one and the other – if it exists – is likely as not, a direct result of that social impetus.

So to me, to suggest men and women naturally think differently is as accurate as suggesting rich people are naturally healthier than poor people.

That’s where changes are needed, to make that career path more attractive to women, not trying to create diversity by having recruitment targets for women.

It’s not just about making STEM careers more attractive IMHO. Where changes are needed is to allow and encourage girls to grow up believing that they can be something other than just housewives and baby factories.

I’m not saying we haven’t marginalised women because clearly we have. I’m simply saying that that process is not asymmetric.

Of course it is. There are plenty of issues which affect men more than women, sure. But to conflate one with the other as if they’re identical is meninist horseshit. Sorry.

Let me give you an example. You said “the vast majority of casualties in war are male”. Of course it is, the vast majority of soldiers are male. If the army was 50:50 male:female, what do you think that would do to the statistics?

Now, apply that logic to other areas. Suicide due to work stress? Death when doing dangerous manual work?

Men are in a position of privilege in Western society, women are treated as inferior. Men are conditioned to be scientists and action heroes, women to be little princesses to be looked after. Generation after generation we reinforce this, right from the outset when we buy little Logan his first Action Man and little Chardonnay her first baby dolly. You can go “yeah but, testicular cancer” as much as you like but it’s a straw man.

11 pages. By page 7 it’s just cougar, junky, kimbers and chewkw participating.

I doubt it, I’ll have banned at least one of them by that point.

(-:

Page 3. Don’t think that counts as a warning though.

I’ve still got my money on page 11 for that.

By page 7 it’s just cougar, junky, kimbers and chewkw participating.

Nah im of for a bike ride !

kimbers – Member
By page 7 it’s just cougar, junky, kimbers and chewkw participating.
Nah im of for a bike ride !

Assuming it’s not Lisbon to Naukan, i don’t imagine it’ll prevent you being back in time to join back in.

Now, apply that logic to other areas. Suicide due to work stress?

There’s other issues at play with male suicide so don’t equate fewer women killing themselves than men with less women in more senior roles at work

Yeah you’ll have to list those data, the onus is you or you are just posting unverified opinion

For the umpteenth time, it’s all there on the linked Youtube clip. I know you don’t want to see it, but it’s there.

There’s other issues at play with male suicide so don’t equate fewer women killing themselves than men with less women in more senior roles at work

Sure, but that’s not what I said. “Suicide due to work stress” is 100% due to work stress, by definition. Of course there are other reasons. I’m losing the will to live reading some of the comments on here, for a start.

well you did choose to engage with sexists . What were you expecting an epiphany than shattered their bigotry?
Its not like the OP does not have a history of doing this and I like to term such folk mansturbaters- well its what the filter will let me get away with

The 20th century rumbles on.

Its not like the OP does not have a history of doing this and I like to term such folk mansturbaters- well its what the filter will let me get away with

I like to term people like you facists.

If the army was 50:50 male:female, what do you think that would do to the statistics?

This is true but fails to address the real issue which is why our armies are only populated by men and why the hard, menial and physically demanding jobs that lead to reduced life expectancy are largely populated by men.

You may find ‘The Red Pill’ and interesting perspective. It’s made by a feminist who set out to ridicule the ‘meninist’ movement and ended up realising that they had a point.

well you did choose to engage with sexists

I don’t believe GT is a sexist. Rather he’s… ignorant, in the literal rather than pejorative sense.

I used to think the same way. Then I fell in with a new circle of friends, predominantly female, a number of whom were a bit broken in some way. It opened my eyes as to how I perceived things like feminism, equality, disability and privilege. I realised I was wrong about many things.

Primarily, I realised that “equality” and “fairness” were not synonyms.

This is true but fails to address the real issue which is why our armies are only populated by men

I’ll just leave this here.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/women-soliders-front-line-infantry-british-army-commander-tim-collins-no-place-for-woman-a7129271.html

I’ll just leave this here.

OK but to what end, what point does this support?

FYI my undergraduate, in Anthropology, included a year of feminist studies. I used to consider myself a feminist but then I experienced life and I realised that while the need for equality was still very important and that much needed to be done, the issues were, as I’ve said, not asymmetrical.

Thanks for acknolwedging that I’m not ‘sexist’ and for qualifying what you mean by ignorant, but really I’m not that either. I am the kind of person who goes out of his way to both read as much as I can on a subject and I cahnge my mind if I see evidence that shows I was wrong. I believe I’ve demonstrated that capability on here a number of times and I genuinely mean no ill will to anyone (I also score very high on agreeableness!)

There’s a point at which we end up agreeing that there is inequality everywhere, that it’s not just women who are marginalised (btw did you know that women aged between 20 and 30 earn 15% more than their male counterparts), but men and many other groups and the only part we actually disagree on, is the degree to which these groups are more or less marginalised. And that is the point at which we also conclude that trying to agree who is more wronged is utterly futile and banal. It’s like trying to argue who suffered more in the world wars based on how many of their citizens died.

What I am most concerned about however, is the same thing as prof. Peterson, which is the way in which the debate in the humanities gets shut down because it challenges orthodoxy even when the data says there might be somehting in it. That’s intellectual tyranny and that way Fascism lies.

I like to term people like you facists.

well you do have a history of hyperbolic responses that are utter bobbins and at odd with the facts so why not further highlight your lack of grip on reality.
You really are silly and of all the insults to be levelled at this PC hand wringing lefty do gooder , on here, fascist is by far and away the funniest and most deranged.

At least you are consistently wrong and hyperbolic still that mansturbaters for you

Can I also just say that I think Chewkw’s comments are simply ridiculous at best and unacceptable at worst. I do NOT share his view.

TurnerGuy – Member
Helen Greiner – cofounder of iRobot answers one of your questions.

It must be a struggle to find women leading in the software industry if you need to search through 177 years (1840 to 2017) of history for them …

The timeline from 1840 up to 2017 in your link only listed 21 women “to lead” in software tech? I mean is that all? Some are working in team(s) and some are co-founder so how much each contributed nobody knows.

How many men have come and go by that time in software tech? 😮

If you really need to search hard to find women to lead then “Huston (woman) we have got a problem”. 🙄

How long does it take for women to take the lead in software industry like those of the current ones led by men where everyone knows?

iRobot? She is not even the founder but “Co-founder” with two other men.

Now, if women really want to stand out in software tech then they need to become the founder and be household name, like all those large software tech companies. They need to start their own coz at the moment nobody knows if they are capable of becoming a successful household names.

Therefore, if women in the software tech want to present stronger arguments, that they are equal if not better, then they need to become household name. 😯

geetee1972 – Member

Can I also just say that I think Chewkw’s comments are simply ridiculous at best and unacceptable at worst. I do NOT share his view.

Edit: I don’t argue to support anyone but asking the obvious question where everyone seems deliberately trying to avoid.

My argument is that women can be as good but the evidence does not match up. i.e. why are most software tech companies have men as leaders at the moment?

Therefore, until you present a coherent argument to match up to that evidence, i.e. more women leaders in software, there simply is a gap in understanding why women have not started a household name software tech company.

The question is why? 😯

All equality taken into consideration in 21 century but why are women still not creating household name software? Is that the uncomfortable truth most refuse to address or do not know how to address?

why are most software tech companies have men as leaders at the moment?

Well if you listen to Peterson’s arguments, you’ll understand that the answer to that question has nothing to do with capability and to suggest such is pretty abhorent.

None of the arguments I or Peterson have put forward (or this Google engineer) have anything to do with IQ (which ultimately is what drives the cognitive ability needed to be a programmer). It’s all about the effect of personality (specifically the big five traits) and how they result in different motivations.

But, to answer your question, have a listen to this:

[video]https://youtu.be/NV2yvI4Id9Q?t=51[/video]

There’s something in this (something I chose for myeslf as well, i.e. I have chosen to let my wife’s career take precidence over mine and have chosen a less demanding career path so that she can pursue hers and I can be more the primary care giver to our children).

oh, again with Prof Peterson? Odd that the ex google employee chose him to speak with, doncha think?

here’s the link to his wiki page I posted on page one for folk who can be arsed to see what the good prof thinks about equality

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_Peterson

Odd that the ex google employee chose him to speak with, doncha think?

Not remotely surprising and I can’t see what’s wrong with it or with Peterson (I trust you’ve listened to hime at length yes?)

I can see what is wrong with Bill C16 though and so can many transgender people that I’ve spoken to about the concept. The moment you start to pass laws about how people should speak you’ve lost the argument. That is so spookily close to Orwellian’s vision of a totalitarian state as to leave me cold.

I use the pronouns my best friend and others ask me to because of love and respect, not because of some stupid law.

geetee1972 – Member
Well if you listen to Peterson’s arguments, you’ll understand that the answer to that question has nothing to do with capability and to suggest such is pretty abhorent.

Regardless of the arguments it is a level playing field, it’s called a competition.

In the case of the software guy who got fired for having opinions, he lose out to his competitor(s) (someone wants him out) regardless of how people interpret the event. However, his opinions are not entirely illogical.

There are many things that may impede women to become the software tech leaders but that is the nature of things. i.e. they need to fight for it like anyone else. 😀

Meh. Can’t be arsed.

Not remotely surprising

is that an echo chamber you’re in there..?

Regardless of the arguments it is a level playing field, it’s called a competition.

True.

is that an echo chamber you’re in there..?

I understand what you mean, just not why you chose that as a response to that statement. Why would Peterson doing an interview with this engineer be either surprising or a problem?

Has anyone else noticed that chewkw vocabulary, grammar etc have vastly improved now they’ve dropped the zombie maggot bollocks?

They’ve clearly found being articulate gets a bigger rise out of people.

There are many things that may impede women to become the software tech leaders but that is the nature of things. i.e. they need to fight for it like anyone else.

They have been fighting against a male dominated society since year dot. Regardless of what some idiot ex-google employee(his name wasn’t sheldon was it?) and geetee is trying to spin, Women have found it difficult to enter certain employment sectors in numbers due to it.

This will change. My quip about the 20th century on page 3 is pointing out that some people need to stop living there.