When I tried using a plant sprayer like those above for this, they worked great. The only issue was the amount of water we could carry.
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if i invented a dirt blaster without the need for power would it be a good idea?
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Posted 1 year ago #
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i have a girlfriend to do washing related tasks.
ahm oot.
Posted 1 year ago # -
cranberry - Member
BigBikeBash - if you don't have a patent then it cannot be invalidated. If you have a patent then the design is openly published and publishing it here would not the protection afforded by it in any way.
A patent application is not immediately published. By the time it's granted it will have been published so that anyone can read it. A patent does not need to disclose a full engineering diagram and production instructions, but must include sufficient detail that it would allow one skilled in the art to reproduce the invention.
In order to be patentable it must be possible to show an inventive step over prior art. Something that would not be obvious to one skilled in the art. This is a bit of a grey area TBH.
Public disclosure of an invention prior to a patent application means that it cannot be patented. A posting on an open internet forum is definitely a public disclosure.
If you think you've got a novel idea and you really are considering patenting it, take a look at the patents that already exist at gb.espacenet.com.
While posting this I've come up with a better idea for hand powered pressure washer type system. Pinched it from the latest Super Soaker that I bought. Swap working fluid for water in pumping system. Use unpressurised reservoir. Use an elastic pressurised reservoir to provide pressure to working fluid. You can do this with an elastic membrane or a piston with a spring, or however else you fancy. Works a lot better than the average sprayer.
What do I win if I've guessed your idea? (BTW I think the above is probably obvious to one skilled in the art, which I'm not)
Posted 1 year ago # -
At work we have an old fire extinguisher that we modified so you can fill with water and then add air through an innertube valve to pressurise, works a treat, we use it on site sometimes if we can't get a hose to where we're working.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Hmm, I used to work in "innovation counselling" which is exactly what everyone is trying to do here. I'm not sure that "innovation counselling" is always a good idea. The most significant things I discovered were
1) There are lots of "inventors" out there who have no idea how things work and are very disappointed when they discover that their idea doesn't. (I'm not saying this is you BBB, I'm just making an observation)
Result - make sure you know it works and avoid armchair experts who probably can help you very little (fail you shouldn't have bothered posting here)
2) The crappest wierdest and stupidest ideas that you never expect to even work never mind be successful often are very successful. What the average engineer thinks is a bad idea and will fail has no bearing what so ever on what will actually succeed. All that really counts is a conviction for the idea, drive, self belief, determination, lots of hard work and the ability to take what seem like killer knock backs. Oh and money.
Result - The naysayers on here have no idea what there is a market for or not, they just cannot see it themselves. Where you need advise is what to make it from, how to make it, testing, and marketing. What some see as a niche may well eventually drive a significant portion of the marketplace.
I say go for it. You have an idea, you can see the market.
The most helpful comment above was this
dmetcalfe - Member
so far been happy with my mobi washer, just need to remember to charge it, but if i dont i can always run it from the car, just more hassle
Which shows that the logic (why have a pump action when you have power at the car) does not tie up with the reality (running off 12 volts in the car can be a pain in the arse.)
Posted 1 year ago # -
As a retailer and purveyor of the most excellent of excellent things... Can you tell me what margin I would be get on these?
You may wish to consider how much the supply chain gets (assuming you are looking at this method of gettng to market). If it's not attractive money wise for me then I am unlikely to want to stock and sell it. If you get my drift.
Posted 1 year ago # -
The most significant things I discovered were
The innovation process has been fairly well codified by a lot of research. And they pretty much proved the bleeding obvious:
A strong, well defined problem really helps you to create successful innovations.
Most people tend to jump to solutions first, but you still need that defined problem in order to sell the idea to investors and the product to customers.
Or in other words, you can have the best solution in the world, but if that problem doesn't effect enough people badly enough, you haven't got a viable business.
So if your problem is "people want to wash their bikes without electricity" you might be looking at a small eco-mentalist market.
If it's "people want to wash their bikes without electricity, using any water they've got, for a third of the price of a dirtworker, and also don't want to have to lug a 15 litre tank of water around" then you've suddenly made things a lot broader.
Posted 1 year ago # -
A strong, well defined problem really helps you to create successful innovations.
+1.
Here's an idea. Why not have a piston in the tank connected to a platform that you can stand on, thereby creating the pressure to squirt the water out? Or some kind of tread activated pump, like old fashioned blacksmith's bellows...
Posted 1 year ago # -
Or in other words, you can have the best solution in the world, but if that problem doesn't effect enough people badly enough, you haven't got a viable business.
I do not think this is remotely true, sorry. Have you heard of the rational and irrational man arguments in economics? People in the luxurious western world do not buy things like this because they need them.
Posted 1 year ago # -
toys - At last someone who understands where my market is. Do 90% of the people carrying Gerber tools really need them when they could just use pliers etc?
Imagine trying to justify post-it notes - Well, it is a bit of paper you can write stuff on and stick somewhere for someone to read. They can then pick it up and throw it away. It is like a normal piecve of paper but it has a sticky bit. Everybody needs a bit of paper with a sticky bit on it.
I know post-its are very useful etc but if they didn't exist, how many people here would have thought of them as a product?
Posted 1 year ago # -
People in the luxurious western world do not buy things like this because they need them.
In some market sectors they do.
The two examples you give are bad ones - they both make something easier. Post it notes make leaving notes for peope easier - you can stick them somewhere noticeable and they won't blow away/get lost in a pile of papers, and multi-tools mean that for one small thing in your pocket you can have a whole load of tools with you. Very very useful.
FWIW the bloke that invented post-it notes came across the adhesive by accident when trying to make some other kind of glue. He made a few bits of paper with it on.. the office were using them for years before they realised there was a market for them.
If you are looking for the impulse buy/luxury market then you would need some kind of 'cool' product that is intrinsically attractive. Is a bike washer that? Or a utility item? Who bought their dirtworker because it was a cool thing rather than they needed to clean their bike when out and about?
Posted 1 year ago # -
molgrips - are you trying to say that the mountain bike market is driven by people with a need? Does anyone actually need a dirtworker? BTW do you work in product design/development?
Posted 1 year ago # -
mol - the 2 examples I gave were different. The Gerber tool looks cool but there are far cheaper alternatives and again I say how many peolpel who carry them 'really' need them.
Post it notes - Yes they are useful but hardly essential. I know the story about the glue. If they were such an obviously good idea why was it so long before someone actually thought to turn them into a product.
People will pay for stuff they don't 'need' either because it is cool or makes their life a bit easier. Hit both of those touch points and you have a marketable product.
Posted 1 year ago # -
I see why people would buy a dirt worker, well only just but why would you need to one that needs no power. That's what I don't get but hey best of luck with your project and yes I'm intrigued.
Posted 1 year ago # -
The Gerber tool looks cool but there are far cheaper alternatives
Really? Although I only know one person who carries one and he uses it all the time. And in the US at least they are cheaper than leatherman etc.
People will pay for stuff they don't 'need' either because it is cool or makes their life a bit easier. Hit both of those touch points and you have a marketable product
That's just what we are saying (and is bleedin obvious). But I don't see why your dirtworker is cool or more useful than the original. Your dirtworker will be a success if it's a lot cheaper than the original one, and works as well or better.
Posted 1 year ago # -
I do not think this is remotely true, sorry. Have you heard of the rational and irrational man arguments in economics? People in the luxurious western world do not buy things like this because they need them.
You need a certain number of people who are willing to pay your price for your product, or you do not have a business. That is simple maths. You have certain costs in developing a product and creating a business. If the total sales revenue does not match or exceed that figure, you're in trouble.
Doesn't matter if your customers are rational actors or irrational, they need to think they have a problem that your product can solve.
You'll note that I didn't mention need VS want in my post. Nevertheless, these days a lot of people will be focusing more towards needs rather than wants.
I think a low cost portable bike washer has serious potential as a product - your car stays cleaner, your cleaning process can be quicker as mud doesn't get to dry on, etc. I can also see the potential for lucrative exit strategies. But it seriously pays to think about the basics before you invest time and energy in working on the product.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Toys19 - need is a relative term. I for example popped into Halfords today for an aerial adapter for my new car stereo. I needed it to make my stereo work properly, but I didn't really NEED it in any vital sense, of course. Very little is truly needed.
The MTB market is driven partly by need to achieve certain aims (for example I also bought disc brake cleaner and lube) and partly by coolness. If say you were producing a beautifully CNC machined/carbon bike washer then that could appeal to a coolness luxury market (seems to work for Leyzine although their products have to be kept within a certain price range to be reasonable.. also works for companies that sell stupidly bling stuff to fat old roadies) but would in reality be too expensive to manufacture.. and because bike washers are not intriniscally cool. Ever see a bling dishwasher in a fancy house? Me neither. People pay a lot of money for bikes because they are cool and they have a close connection with riders. Dirt workers are just utility items.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Why by a satnav when you can use a map?
terrible comparison, and I'm no Satnav lover. Anyone who has tried to navigate the streets of London in a car whilst trying to read an A to Z knows where the market lies for Satnavs.
Personally I don't recall finishing any ride thinking "if only I had a portable jet wash" never mind a "green" one, so I'm certainly not your target market, sorry. Good luck tho'
Posted 1 year ago # -
The only reason I bought a dirtworker was for 24 hour mtb races, where in the mud they are absolutely invaluable. I was always on a clean working bike (at least at the start of a lap!) whilst everyone else was screwed. Or queueing for the jetwasher for 2 hours.
Now I am working away from home I bring my bike, and when the trails are wet I need to clean my bike since I want to ride more than once a week. It's either the hotel shower or the dirtworker
Posted 1 year ago # -
You need a certain number of people who are willing to pay your price for your product, or you do not have a business. That is simple maths. You have certain costs in developing a product and creating a business. If the total sales revenue does not match or exceed that figure, you're in trouble.
This is obvious. When did anyone say his invention would be sucessful without any customers?
Doesn't matter if your customers are rational actors or irrational, they need to think they have a problem that your product can solve.I totally disagree with this and my experience of helping people with their innovations says that this is not so. I think "need" is a rationalisation invented by product design educators.
need is a relative term. I for example popped into Halfords today for an aerial adapter for my new car stereo. I needed it to make my stereo work properly, but I didn't really NEED it in any vital sense, of course. Very little is truly needed.
Exactly, so you can rationalise about need as much as you want but really its about desirability and perceived lifestyle.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Yes, but this is a tool for doing something unglamorous ie cleaning, which no-one wants to do. Few people get a pleasurable high out of cleaning something. You do from making things though, which is why men will buy loads of tools etc. that they don't really need, cos it will help them do something fun.
As I said, there will only be a market if it is cheaper and/or better than a dirtworker.
Posted 1 year ago # -
*coughs*
Posted 1 year ago # -
so what is wrong with the plant sprayer? Does what a dirtworker does and needs no power.
Posted 1 year ago # -
We use the plant sprayer in the shop. It works well.
Eco and uses cock all water too.
Double Eco. Like super duper save Flipper Eco.
Posted 1 year ago # -
I've used a plant sprayer. They kind of work but nto as well as a dirtworker. I've tried cleaning a load of Mayhem clag off a bike with one and it's really not easy.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Hence BBB idea to make some kind of frankencleaner that's half way between a plant sprayer and a dirtworker.
Posted 1 year ago # -
But I can't see how it'd be BETTER than a DW to be honest.
A better dirtworker would be more powerful...
Posted 1 year ago # -
Well it's subjective which has been my argument all the way along.
Posted 1 year ago # -
But I can't see how it'd be BETTER than a DW to be honest.
Doesn't need to be. If it was nearly as good but a lot cheaper I'd have one.
The sprayer is a lot cheaper, but no where near as good. If the idea under discussion is say, 90% as good as a DW and costs £30 he's sell loads. If it's 70% as good and £60 probably not as many...Posted 1 year ago # -
The only reason I bought a dirtworker was for 24 hour mtb races, where in the mud they are absolutely invaluable
my only experience of a dirt work was at a 24hr race and I've intentionally never used one since.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Old water fire extinguisher with a schrader valve. fill 3/4 with water, pressurise, instant jet wash. friend has been using it for years. Works really, really well. And very quick to refil and charge with more water and air.
Posted 1 year ago # -
i had an old 10 litre garden sprayer with an added schraeder valve, used co2 and track pumps. worked a treat.
Posted 1 year ago # -
BigBikeBash - if you don't have a patent then it cannot be invalidated. If you have a patent then the design is openly published and publishing it here would not the protection afforded by it in any way.
:S It's called prior art. If you publish it in any way, christ if you even speak about it by email with anyone not under NDA, it's no longer considered patentable as it's prior art.
Regardless, I just chuck my bikes on a sheet and wash them when I get home with a cuppa.
Posted 1 year ago # -
I just chuck my bikes on a sheet and wash them when I get home with a cuppa.
Now that IS eco friendly.
I use a bucket, same principle but a bit more water.
Posted 1 year ago #
Topic Closed
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