I went into the LBS, raving about how good the Whyte T130 in Large felt for me at 5’10”, 32” inside leg. However, as part of that, I said that I needed the reverb collar all the way into the 19” seat tube. When the reverb is fully extended (for climbing height), I am on the very tip of my toes on the floor. When the heel is on the pedal, the leg is bolt straight. When the foot is in the correct pedalling position on the pedal, there is a slight bend to the leg. I thought this was the ideal.

But the staff said, to my surprise, that this was totally wrong, claiming that there should be a 30 degree bend in the leg. This they claim, creates a more circular motion, rather than a more up and down motion. Are they right in what they say?! If they are, then the seat tube is indeed too long for me!

Not right for me, I wouldn’t be comfortable with my seat that low for climbing/riding on the flat, doesn’t do my knees any good.

yeah i’d always gone by that setup; about 10 or 15 degrees of bend when the ball of the foot is on the pedal. Feels pretty comfortable for me, anyway…

There is no right and wrong, merely lots of rules of thumb to use a starting point.

Toes:ground is completely irrelevant, that’s driven by BB height. You’re right that heel on pedal, crank at 6 o clock, leg straight, is a common starting point. Some will want lower, unlikely to want higher as you’ll get into hips wiggling as you reach for the pedals and what not.

I’d play around until you’re comfortable with it. 30 degree bend at the bottom of the stroke is low though.

Bear in mind that what you think your leg is doing is probably not what it actually is – typically, people’s knees are still fairly bent at full extension even when they don’t feel that.

Similarly have a look at pro roadies – you’ll see much more bend than you might expect.

But njee is right – there is no set rule.

Having had two bike fits the guy that fit them said the my saddle height was spot on already, with a slight bend of the knee at the bottom of the pedal stroke. 30 degrees sounds like way too much and I can’t imagine that being remotely comfortable when climbing.

pedal at 5 o clock
heal over the axle of the pedal
knee almost straight.

Too high and you hips will rotate, not good

The lemond formula is a good base point, that less a bit, 5-10mm perhaps, works for mtb for many. Can put a lot of riders on a slightly lower saddle than they may have. Leg straight but relaxed with heel on pedal as mentioned gives a similar result, also a good start point.

30 degree bend seems to be what a lot of professional bike fitters seem to work to.
I personally don’t feel I can comment either way as I’m not a qualified or time served bike fitter.

20 degree bend on my road bike and run 15mm lower on the mountain bike.

Look at the pros. Nobody runs road seat height.

My XC MTB is 5mm lower than my road bikes, haven’t measured my full sus, but it’ll be very similar.

If you have the saddle too high then you’ll get hamstring/knee/hip problems. If you haven’t got them, then you’re fine. Rocking hips is a giveaway for being too high. All the ‘rules’ are pretty useless, especially as they relate to pedalling bikes on tarmac, not over bumps.

I wouldn’t run a mtb saddle as high as a road saddle unless I was riding smooth tracks/road on it

As some have said, reasonable amount of bend even on a road bike is common (even when you watch them on the telly an’ everything); I doubt the very last bit of straightening your leg with a ded high saddle would be offering much power at all

One of the advantages of a dropper post is being able to run a saddle hight maximum close to if not the same as you should be looking for on the road which would otherwise make the bike tough to ride over trick descents. 30 deg might be an ok compromise on a fixed seatpost but seems a bit low for a dropper. My knee gives me all sorts of grief if I have too low a saddle – 5mm can be enough to make me ache like crazy after 20 odd miles. A dropper has made a huge difference on that score for me.

Also worth noting that when your fleet are correctly placed on flat pedal, with the axle nearer the middle of the foot, you need to drop the saddle a bit in comparison to your spd foot position.

Cheers all.

Hips do not rock at all and it is comfortable. There is noticeable bend although how would I measure the degree?! Furthermore, I fly up the climbs. On the flats I drop saddle a touch. So maybe I should just ignore what lbs said!

If you want to see what is actually going on, get someone to photograph you riding from a side view and literally place a protractor over the image , if you want to gauge what 30 degs looks like.
Personally, for climbing and can’t compare myself with many, directly, but as part of a six rider regular group and I’ve had knee injury issues in the past from other things, there’s just one bloke in our mob who I can’t chase down on most climbs , heel on pedal at bottom of stroke, leg feels straight ( but actually isn’t quite) , this puts saddle at about 20mm lower than the point at which my hips rock.
I get no knee pain if I climb like this. At just 20mm less my knees start to ache and I can feel strain in my lower back.

1.09 times inside leg is one formula

I have my seat the same height on all bikes on and off road as my legs dont change length

claiming that there should be a 30 degree bend in the leg. This they claim, creates a more circular motion, rather than a more up and down motion. Are they right in what they say?!

I expect that depends on your pedaling style, spinner or masher, saddle set-back, etc. ie, without a good fitter’s eye and questioning it’s hard to apply any rules. The 1.09, the Lemond and the heel trick have been used a lot over time and they’re the only saddle height fitting guides that seem to be of much use as a starting point. There’s different and better ways to do it, without using a single measurement even, but you’d need to do that with someone who fully understands the process.

edric, could I venture a guess that you started as a recreational mountain biker before you bought a road bike?

I say that simply because so many new roadies from that background ride on road with (to my born and bred road racer eyes) comically low saddles. Most folk that come from a road race background (note race, not recreational) and try mountain bikes out quickly realise their previous road saddle height (known to the mm, as that’s how sad most of us are) is simply impractical off road and lower them a little bit. Hence the preference for multiple saddle heights depending on type of bike. That is until dropper posts came along and changed everything.

30 degrees sounds like a very bent leg but have a look at a leg measured in motion with dartfish or something similar and actually, you see that 30 degrees is a lot straighter in real life than it is in most peoples mind.

I think bikedynamic have some pics on their website that might be worth looking at. A lot has to do with how much you use your ankles as well.

No .I had a road bike from 14 and a mountain bike from 20 .I am now 50 and have always ridden with the same seat height 86cm seat rail to crank centre.The same height whether on a time trial ,riding the track or off road .I tried lowering the seat and it just felt cramped and inefficient.

86cm seat rail to crank centre

How tall are you!

5’11” and 802mm centre BB to saddle top, measured from 140mm rearward from saddle tip here. Why on earth are you measuring to rail? In 36 years have you never change saddle model?

edit – 802 is with current fizik shoes and spd-sl cleats. Obviously (!!) that changes by a mm or two if the shoe model changes or ! change pedal brand to one with a different stack.

Dont usually need to alter much depending on seat ,just a tinker.I am 6ft 4 with very long legs and size 14 feet.I have always measured to the rail then fine tuned it I should have clarified that ! I find shoes make a difference and use about 4 different pairs depending on which bike I am on .Some bikes never change saddles .Have had a B17 on one bike and a Colt on another for about 20 years .They have just about broken in !

Dont usually need to alter much depending on seat ,just a tinker.I am 6ft 4 with very long legs and size 14 feet.

That’s weird, or maybe you have been very luck with saddles having very similar. The saddles in my shed vary by over 25mm from rail to saddle top distance – so bb to rail is a useless measurement to me.. But as you can see I’m pretty anal about getting it absolutely spot on – mainly because my stupid knee is so fragile. A 5mm change is massive as fas I’m concerned so 25mm is off the radar!

I can appreciate protecting a knee as I am waiting for an MRI on one knackered by running .It is ok to cycle on though (luckily )

A big part of it is how you flex your ankle, how big your feet are and where they sit relative to the pedal axle. As I’m on flats I have my feet quite far forwards on the pedals and tend to keep my heels down when pedalling, so I get more leg extension than if I pointed my toes in clips with the same saddle height.

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https://flic.kr/p/pjV54h

Not sure if image upload has worked but here’s a photo of my with reverb at full extension, for climbing. Does that look alright?

Which version of Reverb have you got?

100 or 125mm?

If 125, it would help swapping it for a 100….

I certainly wouldn’t say it looks too high. Plenty of bend in your knee but you do have a bit of heel lift so it may not be as much as it looks.

Static photos are alway tricky to get right – if you have a turbo and can take a still from a video clip you get a more realistic image of how you are in action. Good (apple) app called bike fast fit is good for getting accurate measurements at home but you’d still need a turbo.

looks a small bike for a large, maybe the picture angle tho..

You telling me! I Had a medium before (shop were adamant it was the right size). Had it a month and knew it was too small, shop agreed to swap front triangle to a large for £200.

609mm top tube on large so roomy enough for me at 5’10” but hard to imagine it fitting anyone over 6′!

Bought a Whyte Shoreditch commuter bike today, same story with that, ended up with the large.

http://www.menshealth.co.uk/fitness/cardio-exercise/olympic-fitness-screts

For max efficiency:

Heel on pedal axle when at max distance from from you (between 5 & 6 depending how you look at it) your knee should be LOCKED – in other words completely straight

All else will follow from here

When the middle of your foot is on the pedal axle your knee will be able to move a little and when the ball is on – the normal riding position – your knee will flexed a little

This position engages all the pedaling muscles involved quite well, including one of the most important – vastus medialis, or ‘the cycling muscle’

However, saying that for seated climbing that position is the best for max power

Cruising singletrack though, I find too high, and can get snag if trying to quickly get back off out the way

3 stage Dropper posts are good for this. Top position max efficiency – climbing

One inch down – cruising singletrack etc

All the way down – jeesus that looks steep

Got one FS actually

Bonesetter- that certainly makes sense to me. The position is powerful for climbing. Your weight also goes forward somewhat when climbing, so you need to be able to push DOWN on the pedals. if thé saddle is any lower, it starts straining the hip flexors and lower back.

And agreed, when on flatter single track, I drop saddle an inch or so. When descending, as low as possible!

Hard to tell if your saddle height is correct with just a pic, a video would be better.

You seem to be on the balls of your feet though, try moving your feet forward so the pedal is more under the centre of your foot. You will probably find terchnical riding easier and you’ll be able to lower your saddle abit. This may also drop your heels a bit and help engage your glutes.

Best formula I know of is the Lemond formula, or even just your inside leg measurement minus 10cm. Both work pretty close for me. THis is for road riding though, your saddle should be lower when on the MTB.

Saddle height is different from person to person though, so these articles saying “25 degrees” are actually bollox.

Andy Pruitt's Fit tips

njee is closest for me. Riding off road, you are in and out of the saddle so seat height is less relevant (no less important). Also shouldn’t your reverb be able to stop in a position where you want it ? not just up, not just down. When climbing and you start to get on the rivet, then that’s an entirely different subject.

Road bike frame geo is different too, so the minus 10cm will probably not work

861mm from saddle top to crank centre. 10mm lower in my MTB. I have always prioritised pedalling over decending so run my saddle higher than most of the MTBers I know.