Elfin probably best you stop spouting rubbish on something you clearly know nothing about.

Wind yer neck in.

Q: Can a paramedic/nurse issue a death certificate?

A: No.

I knew this, but thought I’d ask anyway, see if others were on the ball… 😉

So; the legal authority of a nurse or paramedic is restricted, in certain contexts. Are we agreed?

Right.

This is why I said, and rightly so, that it would involve a load of faff to impose a system of charges/fines based on a patient’s condition.

See, if I fall over get ambulanced then fined cos I was ‘drunk’, then in order to be able to legally impose that fine, you’d have to prove, legally, that I was drunk. Which would require physical evidence. Cos without it, it’s the paramedic’s word against mine. I could quite easily claim I was just tired/pretending/suffering from another medical conditon the paramedic was unaware of. Just because I ‘appeared’ to be drunk, does not in any way mean I was.

Are we getting somewhere now?

Good.

I’m not in any way denigrating the amazing work done by paramedics, just highlighting possible problems with ‘fining’ drunks.

That’s all. Ok?

Right. Carry on. 😀

Maybe this will help you out elf.

You are the only one trying to say that someone would be fined solely on the say so of a Paramedic. It’s a Police job. Paramedics are not the Police. Got it?

Criminal Justice and Police Act 2001
Section 12 of the Licensing Act 1872 (c.94) = Being drunk in a highway, other public place or licensed premises
(1) A constable who has reason to believe that a person aged 18 or over has committed a penalty offence may give him a penalty notice in respect of the offence.

Not that difficult to administer, is it!

So; the legal authority of a nurse or paramedic is restricted, in certain contexts. Are we agreed?

So your talking about forensic medicine. Well yes they can if they’ve done the relevant training. I know 2 ex-colleagues who switched trusts who have done the training for this. So not really a great faff no.

But referring to drunks, yes we can say when someone is drunk but we have to show that we considered other options for the behaviour too. Just like a Dr then.

What’s that got to do with a person getting medical treatment?

The argument was for fining/charging people who have to be treated BECAUSE they are drunk. I’ve highlighted possible problems with implementing such a scheme.

Paramedics are not the Police. Got it?

It never left me…

Paramedics have no legal authority, unlike police officers, who in turn have no medical authority.

Hence why such a scheme would be extremely difficult to implement.

But referring to drunks, yes we can say when someone is drunk but we have to show that we considered other options for the behaviour too. Just like a Dr then.

Are you qualified, as a doctor is, to give medical evidence in a court of law?

Not just your observations from whatever incident, proper medical evidence.

Is this the right room for an argument?

5 minute or full half hour? 😆

Are you qualified, as a doctor is, to give medical evidence in a court of law?

Yes, they will be.

Shut your festering gob you tit…

Are you qualified, as a doctor is, to give medical evidence in a court of law?

I have.

I’d wish you’d pick what your argument is, you tell us that we can’t legal diagnose a fractured ankle your proven wrong so you say no I mean take bloods which we can. And now you on about court of law which err guess what we can.

I’m not sure where anyone claimed we’re the Police.

Elf – its all limited by circumstances – for doctors as well. Drunkadn incapable / drunk and disorderly is done by cops not doctors. I can and have pronounced death, diagnose under the influence of alcohol and / or drugs. Its the sort of role that can be delegated in particular circumstances and there would be no issue at al with having nurses deciding someone was drunk. Its not rocket science. And yes – I could be called into a court to give evidence on this – I was actually called once but they accused did not show.

Elfin has totally lost the plot, best to send an ambulance, or on second thoughts best not to, in case he is agressive to the staff, and the ambulance is required by somebody in actual need of medical attention, not just a slap with a wet newspaer.

not just a slap with a wet newspaer.

Don’t forget and point at his monitor saying “Who’s done that, now who’s done that, bad lad!”

I’d wish you’d pick what your argument is, you tell us that we can’t legal diagnose a featured ankle your proven wrong

No, if you bothered to read and understand, you’d know that’s not in fact what I said:

So, if I go to hospital with a knacked ankle, a nurse/paramedic would make an initial medical diagnosis based on obvious signs. But just say I was to make a claim against someone for injury caused, then a doctor would be the only person legally qualified to write down ‘this patient has a sprained/broken ankle’ etc. Am I correct? IE, nothing a paramedic or nurse sez would have any legal weight. No?

See, I’m asking a question, not making a statement.

Here’s another:

Are you qualified to refer a patient for surgery?

you say no I mean take bloods which we can

Are you legally qualified to present the results of a blood test which you have undertaken yourself, in a court of law?

And by that, I don’t mean the pinprick blood sugars thing, I mean a proper blood toxicology report. The kind of thing what would be required if you were to be making a claim as to a person’s medical condition/level of inebriation etc. So, blood sample taken, sent off for analysis, results examined, medical conclusion produced.

And now you on about court of law which err guess what we can.

To what level? Are you qualified to give evidence as I’ve mentioned above? What is the nature of the ‘evidence’ you’ve bin asked to produce in court?

See, what I’ve actually done, is asked quite a lot of questions, which jolly well have not actually bin answered in any real depth. Basically, and I’ll repeat myself again, what I’m talking about is legally admissible evidence, which could be contested. Are you, as a ‘paramedic’, qualified to produce and present such evidence, in a legal context?

So, the charge is ‘Defendant X was drunk’. Defendant X says ‘no I was not, prove it’. Who has the legal authority, in such a situation (Which is the kind of thing relevant to this discussion), to present such evidence as that which would be required to prove a person’s drunkenness in a court of law?

Now do you understand what I’m getting at? The difficulty in being able to impose any such charges/fines?

In order to do someone for drink driving, the police have to produce physical evidence. In the instances where blood or urine samples are produced, these samples must have bin analysed and verified by a qualified doctor.

So, instead of being knobs and posting daft tags and generally having a pop, why not try to understand what I’m actually saying?

jolly well have not…was not…bin

Whilst you insist on writing like that I’ll struggle to understand what your saying. But given you’ve now narrowed your shotgun approach down I’ll try.

Paramedics can take bloods but as a general rule we don’t, for one we don’t have the equipment and anywhere to store them. Could these be used in a court of law well it depends on the charge, certain charges need someone trained in medical forensics, there are some Paramedics who have done this but it’s not normal.

To answer your question to what evidence I gave in court, I can’t really say but I will say it was whether morphine would effect someones judgement in a certain dose to understand what they were saying in their statement.

Currently there is no need to get bloods for a drunken disorderly charge and I have had people charged and then prosecuted after the Police asked if they were intoxicated or was it something else causing it.

So like I said you really have no idea what you’re talking about.

Are you qualified to refer a patient for surgery?

No and what’s that got to do with your question about drunken charges, see what I mean now about shotgun approach.

In order to do someone for drink driving, the police have to produce physical evidence. In the instances where blood or urine samples are produced, these samples must have bin analysed and verified by a qualified doctor.

Nope – they could be taken by a nurse and are analysed by a lab.

Drunk and disorderly / drunk and incapable is on the word of a cop.

You see I have actually worked in this role.

Nurse / physios and I assume paramedics are able to give diagnoses that carry as much legal weight as a doctors in some circumstances.