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125 posts & 43 voices | Started 1 year ago by anagallis_arvensis | Latest reply from breatheeasy

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dekadanse - Member

TJ's spot on (never thought I'd find myself saying this after the spats I've had with him).............all those private sector loving STW folk who believe that just because they've got crap pensions, and this must be caused by halfway decent public sector pensions rather than the greediness of their own bosses (who, by the way, never forget to feather their own nests in a way that defies gravity), should now resume banging their own heads like metronomes minute by minute until they extinguish that last brain cell. C'mon guys, this is an exercise in extreme masochism - good old 'if I suffer then I'm going to make bloody sure you suffer too.' What ever happened to rounding up rather than screwing down?

And for the record, having worked in the public sector for a big chunk of my life, and now having 3 part-time jobs (one vol sector, two private sector) I have to say that I never met these alleged lazy incompetent publicly employed drones you guys seem to meet everywhere. I did however meet many stressed people trying to do their job and make a difference and yes, actually help people, in adverse circumstances. Nothing I have seen more recently in private employment has matched that...........and then there's the voluntary sector, but that's a whole new thread.

Posted 1 year ago #
big_n_daft - Member

Because the private sector pension provision is so poor then its unfair that the public sector gets decent pensions is the thinking hence this whole debate

what's happened to the Unison pension scheme?

Posted 1 year ago #
aracer - Member

Come on... join the real world! is pretty much shorthand for that very sentiment

Hmm. Except I appear to have been the first in this thread to use the phrase "real world", and if you check my post you'll see I've got a pension which is on roughly the same terms as these new proposals (having previously been on CS terms). This is still a vast amount better than most private sector pension provision, and really not that awful or unfair at all. I'm certainly not suggesting public sector employees should lose their defined benefits schemes (would be rather hypocritical when I still have one).

The thing is, when our terms changed, we weren't that happy, but working for a (now) private company where the pension scheme has a large deficit (due to market conditions and actuarial changes rather than any pension holidays - though Gordon's grab had an effect) and pension costs directly affect the viability of the company, you sometimes have to accept these changes when what the company is offering isn't too bad. It's these aspect of the "real world" which public sector employees are insulated from.

As for public vs private sector pay, I'm earning less in real terms than when I was a CS 10 years ago, and would be earning more now if I'd stayed as a CS and just got the standard CoL rises. Given the way my pay is going, I reckon there's actually a good chance I'll be better off under career average earnings than final salary (and there is no prospect of a big pay rise pre-retirement round here - even assuming I'm still in a job with a DB pension scheme in 3 months time)!

Posted 1 year ago #
noteeth - Member

except I appear to have been the first in this thread to use the phrase

To be clear, aracer, I didn't mean you specifically (or indeed, this thread) - but that is certainly the tone of discussion out there in the, er, real world.

Must go - have to clock on.

Posted 1 year ago #
Rio - Member

all those private sector loving STW folk who believe that just because they've got crap pensions, and this must be caused by halfway decent public sector pensions rather than the greediness of their own bosses

Haven't actually come across one of these people yet. I've certainly never said, or heard anyone else say, that private sector pension problems are caused by public sector pension provision - that's a quite bizarre statement, and in fact many private sector pensions are extremely good and a lot better than much of the public sector gets. Is "you're only jealous" the only argument anyone's got for not reforming public sector pensions to take into account demographic changes?

Posted 1 year ago #
jp-t853 - Member

It is clear that Public sector workers no longer live in the real world. I worked for a private company that had a mix of final salary and defined benefit schemes. The company paid 28% of salaries on top of personal contributions and the cost was rising each year.

I say move public sector workers on to defined contribution schemes where the state matches the contribution made by the employee between 5-15% (still generous by modern standards) and lets see if retired school teachers still buy a new car every two years as most of the ones I know do.

The Hutton report can only be a stepping stone to further reform in 2020.

Posted 1 year ago #
Junkyard - Member

the politics of envy is such a disatesful thing to see Why not just work for the public sector after all it is a total piece of piss and you can spend your time doing very little. free market with labour mobility blah blah blah

Posted 1 year ago #
jp-t853 - Member

Affordability is the issue not envy

Posted 1 year ago #
TandemJeremy - Member

Nope - envy, hatred of the public sector and lies are the issues

The pensions are easily affordable and in many cases fully funded.

Teh NHS pension scheme has already been revised to take account of demographic changes.

Posted 1 year ago #
firestarter - Member

So has ours we pay three percent extra for and extra ten years now and get less in the end but that's not good enough :'(

Posted 1 year ago #
jp-t853 - Member

Defined benefit pension schemes are never easily affordable.

A worker on £30k would need a pot of £360k to pay for 20 years of pension, It would be like paying a mortgage for 40 years.

Posted 1 year ago #
firestarter - Member

mine is

Well feels like it anyway

Posted 1 year ago #
AdamW - Member

As an aside, does this also include MP's pensions too? Perhaps a good hard look at their benefits would also help.

If anyone could be called workshy it should be that lot. These days they just troop in to tick the boxes their bosses tell them to.

Of all parties.

Which reminds me, does the Labour Party these days have a leader? Where is s/he? Been on holiday or something?

Posted 1 year ago #
Rio - Member

envy, hatred of the public sector and lies are the issues

As someone who has a perfectly adequate pension provision and therefore has no reason to be envious I'd say the issue is more one of "I'm all right, Jack", the attitude that made Britain the country it is today.

Posted 1 year ago #
Stoner - Member

point of fact for you TJ since you've forgotten it since last time, companies were encouraged to take pension holidays when funds were in surplus by the Inland Revenue (as was) otherwise a substantial portion of any additional contributions to a surplus fund were taxed. Changes in accounting principals (FRS17), actuarial assumptions (like forecast real returns and life expectancy) and bond rates have been the main reasons that funds now are nominally in deficit, not contribution holidays which were perfectly rational when they were taken in the late 90s.

In fact even BP and Shell have taken contribution policies as recently as 2009.

Posted 1 year ago #
aracer - Member

It's kind of amusing that when the lefties try to accuse others of "politics of envy" it becomes clear that they don't actually understand the meaning of the term.

Posted 1 year ago #
jam bo - Member

Nope - envy, hatred of the public sector and lies are the issues

no it isn't. The amount of pension I will get from working for the civil service for eight years bears no relation to the amount I paid into it.

It's not envy to say that that isn't sustainable...

Posted 1 year ago #
firestarter - Member

My dad was in building and planning for the council and all his mates took the mick out of his pay but he didn't mind as he would have a good pension. Now hes retired they are the ones moaning how its not fair his pension is better.

They didn't mind when they were on much more money, and rather than fight for their case when changes came they just lay down and take it, then say right its not fair now we want you to screw over the public sector too so they can be like us

Posted 1 year ago #
IanMunro - Member

Quite true Jambo.
However I suspect though that pretty much no one on this forum is actually capable of really determining what is and isn't sustainable and are basically relying on received wisdom from 3rd parties that have ideologies broadly similar to their own.

Posted 1 year ago #
breatheeasy - Member

When I started the council all those moons ago in a prior job I remember wondering why a load of part-timers went full time just before they retired. Then someone pointed out they'd worked part time all their lives (and hence reduced pension contributions) but the pension scheme was based on your final years salary....

Not to say that's wrong, and I'm sure there are many other sob stories but just goes to show how you can manipulate even the pension sheme.

Posted 1 year ago #