Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 287 total)
  • Hunting with dogs?
  • RustySpanner
    Full Member

    Big Dave has recently mentioned that he would repeal the current hunting legislation if he and the Eton Mess get re-elected.

    Personally, I'm in two minds about this subject, and find myself veering between the both sides of the debate:

    For:
    1. Fox numbers need to be controlled.

    2. I'm an omnivore and I wear leather. Therefore I am complicit in the mass slaughter and cruelty inflicted on many species: The production of milk and other dairy products is barbaric, for example – these animals are bred purely for the satisfaction omnivores gain from wearing leather, drinking milk and eating a nice juicy steak. Non of it is necessary, alternatives are available, but for my own selfish ends I choose to ignore the suffering of cattle for my own enjoyment.
    Even if I only eat free range eggs and organically reared meat at home, I enjoy eating out and don't question the provinence of my food when doing so.
    Even putting down poison for rats, or taken to it's extreme destroying viruses and bacteria that we consider harmful is just the human race destroying the lives of other species for the benefit of human kind.
    To protest against hunting whilst enjoying the benefits and by-products of other animals suffering would be rank hypocricy of the worst kind.

    3. It keeps the people involved in employment and helps to maintain communities in rural areas.

    4. Many people enjoy the act of hunting.

    5. No moral difference between hunting and fishing, yet the latter is seen as acceptable, the former is not. I also like to shoot, prepare and cook rabbits and wood pigeon occaisionally.
    I don't hunt foxes, but what's the difference?

    And against:
    1. No need to hunt foxes with dogs. If numbers need to be controlled, and it is an 'if', there are far more humane methods available of doing so.

    2. Every little helps. Even though I may enjoy the by-products of animal cruelty in some contexts, by making a stand on hunting I'm taking the first step in reducing the overall cruelty that animals suffer, which may lead me to make more choices of the same kind. Two wrongs don't make a right and our species would be a better one for removing unecessary cruelty, wherever it exists.

    3. People employed by the hunting business should find jobs elsewhere, just as those employed in the bear baiting and slavery trades did when their preferred avenues of employment ceased to exist. If social ties based purely on suffering are destroyed, better ones will emerge and take their place.

    4.Drag hunting can replace most of the satisfaction, apart from the bloodlust obviously, experienced by hunters and their followers.

    5. Fish don't feel pain the way mammals do. Besides, many people eat the fish, rabbits etc that they kill, thus justifying their actions.

    (Or, if you are a non antibiotic using, non rat poison employing vegan or Buddhist:)

    5. I don't inflict cruelty on any other species for my own well being or satisfaction. Why should we?

    What do you lot think?
    Would it affect the way you vote?

    anagallis_arvensis
    Full Member

    your first line is incorrect he has said it would be a free vote if it came up, thats very different and points towards a certain gutlessness on his part IMO. Not that I'm bothered as I would never vote tory anyway.

    trailmonkey
    Full Member

    There is another dimension to this, namely the different cultural opinions that exist between rural and urban communities regarding wildlife. What was seen as a humanitarian act by many was actually seen as an attack on cultural values by others.

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    psling
    Free Member

    5. I don't inflict cruelty on any other species for my own well being or satisfaction. Why should we?

    Ever swatted a fly, spider, or a midge?

    westkipper
    Free Member

    I'm against foxhunting for various reasons, though I understand the appeal for its supporters. We dont lament for the lost world and nobility of the dog-fighting scene now do we?.
    The control argument is false. One of my customers is a pest control freelancer who is brought in by various estates when traditional methods fail. His views of the foxhunting communities methods were, to me, very surprising- complete contempt.
    In fact if you want to kill more foxes, drive more.
    While I don't have a strong view on sport angling, your number 5) is incorrect. Fish do feel pain and as importantly stress, much more than scientists previously thought.

    Talkemada
    Free Member

    I think the rule of 'if you kill it, eat it', is fairly reasonable. Whilst the production of meat etc can at times be less than ideal, big steps have been made in treating animals humanely. Humans eat meat, so will cultivate and kill animals for meat and other prodcuts. Lions etc kill to eat. Same thing really.

    Fox hunting is just about status and class. The toffs need some sort of activity to prove they're still top of the pile, hence why hunting with dogs is still allowed. To try and allay bad PR, they let a few commoners get involved too.

    Every argument regarding controlling fox numbers by hunting with dogs is just bollocks. Totally inefficient way of doing it.

    I'd quite enjoy Toff hunting. Set them loose, in nice easy to spot red jackets, give them a head start, then chase them down with a pack of snarling vicious dogs…*

    Of course, the lower classes stll have their own barbaric bloodsports (mostly outlawed though)- Badger baiting, dog/cock fighting, hare coursing and even greyhound racing is derived from hunting.

    Using dogs to hunt stems from a time when it was useful to do so. It's not any more, and should therefore be stopped.

    Humans still have a bloodlust, a need to 'prove themselves' in some form of violence, hence sports, hunting and fighting in town centres.

    I do like jodhpurs though…

    *I'm only joking, btw… 😉

    toys19
    Free Member

    5. I don't inflict cruelty on any other species for my own well being or satisfaction. Why should we?

    Umm you eat meat and wear leather? So this statement is untrue for you…

    I'm a carnivore but I think we are lying when we try to convince ourselves that we need to eat meat, we do not.

    I think it should be repealed, only because there are more important thing for the authorities to be dealing with. Every fox that is killed in the Uk by dogs each year is much ,much less than the number of people killed on the roads. Spend the money on bike paths and legislation to make car drivers more considerate to pedestrians and cyclists. And it seems weird, the extreme end of the anti camp appear to value a foxes life over human life.

    El-bent
    Free Member

    Fox hunting is just about status and class. The toffs need some sort of activity to prove they're still top of the pile, hence why hunting with dogs is still allowed. To try and allay bad PR, they let a few commoners get involved too.

    +1.

    The law which was brought in a few years back wasn't enough, it left the whole fox-hunting infrastructure in place. Callmedave will remove the law and fox hunting will carry on like it never went away(which it didn't).

    Next time it's banned however, I would suspect it will be a hell of a lot more thorough. A word of warning to all you fox hunting lovers.

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    fox hunting is no longer about controlling fox numbers. Hunts have a vested interest in maintaining a fox population and have often been found to be feeding and supporting foxes.

    Its all about the "entertainment" of chasing foxes ( and other animals)

    What really stinks is the deer hunting – the dogs are bred to be only just faster than a deer so the chases continue for a long time – its no fun if the chase is over quickly.

    In places where there is no fox hunting numbers do not explode – hunts only ever kill an insignificant number of animals.

    The unspeakable in pursuit of the inedible.

    uponthedowns
    Free Member

    Callmedave will remove the law and fox hunting will carry on like it never went away

    Get it right please. He said he would allow a free vote on it. Not the same at all. If there is a Conservative majority in the next parliament and a free vote on hunting you might find a lot of the new Tory MPs in marginal seats either voting to retain the ban or abstaining so as to not upset their voters.

    buzz-lightyear
    Free Member

    "I think the rule of 'if you kill it, eat it', is fairly reasonable"

    I agree but I don't eat spiders or insects.

    "Fox hunting is just about status and class. "

    No I think that's urban perception. The better off rural folks around here own the fast horses so point-to-point and hunting is what they do. But most of the "supporters" are just ordinary rural folks for whom it's an important local cultural event – a bit like cheese rolling, flaming tar barrels, wassailing, fell-runs, "folk" music festivals and gypsy horse trading.

    I'm against inflicting unnecessary suffering on creatures and using dogs for the "sport" of killing foxes is just that. I want my food reared and slaughtered with care. So deer stalking (shooting) is OK for me because they live wild, are killed quickly by expert ghillies and then eaten.

    trailmonkey
    Full Member

    But most of the "supporters" are just ordinary rural folks for whom it's an important local cultural event – a bit like cheese rolling, flaming tar barrels, wassailing, fell-runs, "folk" music festivals and gypsy horse trading.

    Absolutely, but I bet the usual defenders of cultural diversity on here won't go within a mile of recognising it.

    Easier to just hate what is not understood.

    Talkemada
    Free Member

    No I think that's urban perception

    I think it's the simple truth, tbh.

    'Ordinary Rural Folk'? Or do you mean grateful commoners fortunate enough to be involved in toff activity, and therefore feeling a little better about themselves as they are involved in a 'great British tradition'?

    Speaking of which, the Boat race is on. Two teams representing the great Universities of Oxford and Cambridge. Teams consisting of mainly American and Canadian crew members, it seems…

    Including one called 'Shared Hamburger'. 😯

    andybach
    Free Member

    The ban – was generally about bannning posh people from riding horses.

    If your primary aim is reducing animal cruelty then stop people buying Danish bacon, factory farmed chickens and certain breeds of pedigree dog.

    The debate about banning was generally about dealing with people who "enjoy" hunting with hounds. There are lots of gun packs in the hillier parts of the UK, which deal with large numbers of foxes and still involve people with dogs killing foxes, but that attract very little attnetion because there are no braying sloans on horses.

    The hunting community did itself lots of damage by continually wheeling Retired Majors or Mrs smithely-matterson who banged on in a terrible accent about the damage to rural communities.

    Just my opinion but the ban actually brought together lots of "country" people who now had a percieved common enemy.

    To be honest i am bored to tears by the whole thing and despair that parliamentary time wil be wasted with endless debate when no-one will ever change their opinion anyway.

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    trailmonkey – I clearly understand that fox hunting is about the thrill of chasing and killing animals – its not about control of fox numbers.

    Do you mourn the passing of bear baiting? The tradition pastime of badger baiting? cock fighting?

    If what you want is to race around the countryside and all that cultural stuff drag hunts would do as well.

    My family come from Shropshire peasant stock – I still know the people who live on the farm where generations of my ancestors came from – they ( and previous generations who I also knew) hated fox hunting despite raising chickens

    derek_starship
    Free Member

    Fox numbers do need to be controlled. All that is needed is a proficient rifleman and one of these:

    trailmonkey
    Full Member

    tandemjeremy, i haven't at any point in the thread put forward a case for or against fox hunting. i haven't tried to make out that it is a useful method of pest control. i haven't at any point made any difference between bear baiting and any other blood sport. i haven't even said that all working class rural people are in favour of it.

    all i have done is try to bring forward the case that fox hunting is part of a wider cultural theme that is under attack largely because people who are quite remote from it have decided that they don't like it. that, in my mind is the politics of the right not the righteous.

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    trailmonkey – and that is simply wrong – hunting is not a part of anything that is under attack – hunting is under attack as it is a barbarous practise of no utility.

    trailmonkey
    Full Member

    so it has no function as social action ? i live in a rural community and can assure you that it does.

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    The social action could be easily fulfilled by drag hunts. After all if the thrill of killing an animal is not a part of it…………………..

    Talkemada
    Free Member

    Of course, the danger is, if you totally abolished fox hunting, then the Muslims would take over! 😯

    It's Health and Safety/Political Correctness gone mad, I tell you. Bloody Lesbian Disablists…

    trailmonkey
    Full Member

    again tj, you are putting words into my mouth. i never suggested that killing the animal wasn't part of it, in fact the insistence of people to continue hunting despite the ban proves it beyond question.

    all i'm saying is that the ban on hunting in my opinion is a ban on cultural diversity. i don't hunt myself and don't particularly like it either.

    i'm just going to give in because you seem incapable of actually reading what i am saying. better you just pick a fight with someone who supports hunting.

    anagallis_arvensis
    Full Member

    I feel the need to point out that the hunting with hounds ban also banned Hare coursing which seems odd given that rabbits can still be hunted with dogs. Also lamping foxes with a couple of big lurchers is a fairly effective method of control. Hunting deer with lurchers is also banned. All of which to me seems very odd given that fox hunting is still going on with packs of hounds which I thought should have been banned to. A stupid law was bought in that doesnt do what it was meant to.

    toys19
    Free Member

    If it was a 1000 year old tradition being carried out in a South American jungle by loincloth wearing tribesmen then we be all for protecting it.

    hunting is under attack as it is a barbarous practise of no utility.

    And this is just rubbish it has been comprehensively proved that the hunt supports many people in the rural community. I was brought up a peasant in a rural community where everyone supported fox hunting, and still do, so TJ your example of your heritage proves nothing, as any individual case will prove nothing.

    The point has been made clearly here and elsewhere that there are much worse activities legalised in the UK, so why ban Fox Hunting, it is so obviously a cultural issue using so called barbarism as a cover to get at the townies perceived notions of the gentrified country folk. (I'm not saying it isn't barbaric, it is, but I do not think that's the end of the world)

    theboatman
    Free Member

    If they vote they should wrap it in with dog fighting, badger baiting, hare coursing and cock fighting; I don't see why it should just be toff's allowed to engage in cruel animal sports, we should have free access for all, infact we could grow some new ones like an animal 'Ultimate Fighter', where we pitch animals of different types against each other, hamster versus squirrel and the like, no holds barred. I'm sure it would make it on to Eurosports. I'm sure dog figthing from a lock up on the Aylesbury Estate would be cheap to put on, and should bring in the viewers.

    toys19
    Free Member

    theboatman – Member

    If they vote they should wrap it in with dog fighting, badger baiting, hare coursing and cock fighting; I don't see why it should just be toff's allowed to engage in cruel animal sports, we should have free access for all, infact we could grow some new ones like an animal 'Ultimate Fighter', where we pitch animals of different types against each other, hamster versus squirrel and the like, no holds barred. I'm sure it would make it on to Eurosports. I'm sure dog figthing from a lock up on the Aylesbury Estate would be cheap to put on, and should bring in the viewers.

    You better include any type of intensive farming, current slaughterhouse practise, farm animal transport, and while you are at it what about so called journalism and nature programmes, standing by and doing nothing while nature takes its course?

    andywarner
    Free Member

    i used to be vehemently opposed then i got older and realised that there were far more important things to put right before wasting time in the commons debating the ins and outs of a harmless tradition that culls a tiny proportion of what is a very healthy population. it's more to do with class perceptions than animal cruelty at the end of the day.

    theboatman
    Free Member

    You better include any type of intensive farming, current slaughterhouse practise, farm animal transport, and while you are at it what about so called journalism and nature programmes, standing by and doing nothing while nature takes its course?

    I never really thought of fox hunting or dog fighting as nature taking its course, so I I'm not sure how that links. As a veggie, I've already made my choices about animal farming practices at the only practicable level one can.

    toys19
    Free Member

    I never really thought of fox hunting or dog fighting as nature taking its course, so I I'm not sure how that links.

    I'm not saying it is.

    As a veggie, I've already made my choices about animal farming practices at the only only practicable level one can.

    Fair enough, I admire vegetarians and vegans. Wouldn't want to be one, but I still admire you.

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    toys – and all that could still be done by drag hunts if the fun of killing the animal is of no consequence.

    Much worse activities legal – so what – two wrongs don't make a right – and anyway that depends upon your viewpoint. To me killing animals for fun is indefensible. Thats the moral crux. its not the same as killing animals to eat them or eradicating vermin. Fox hunts have a vested interest in maintaining a population of foxes and many hunts have been caught feeding foxes and have admitted that they are not eradicating the foxes.

    So there is no utility argument at all and the cultural and employment issues could easily be sustained b drag hunts

    theboatman
    Free Member

    Despite the sarcasm of my first post, I guess my point is if we are going to be a society that accepts cruelty to animals as a hobby, then I don't see why this should be restricted to one small part of society. I just don't like the lies of it, if a group of toffs want to run down a fox and have it torn to bits I find this no better or worse morally than 2 council estate scrots wanting have their dogs tear each other apart.

    toys19
    Free Member

    and all that could still be done by drag hunts if the fun of killing the animal is of no consequence.

    Nope because the killing is what makes it attractive.

    its not the same as killing animals to eat them

    Yes it is. Nobody needs to eat meat, we only eat meat for pleasure (these days) ergo eating meat is killing for pleasure. The sooner meat eaters face this fact the sooner we can get on with more important things in life.

    Fox hunts have a vested interest in maintaining a population of foxes and many hunts have been caught feeding foxes and have admitted that they are not eradicating the foxes.

    Probably true and your point is?

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    Ah – so unlike most hunt defenders you accept that it is about killing for fun? Not morally acceptable to the majority of the population – why not badger baiting then? Or cock fighting?

    I can find no justification whatsoever for killing animals for fun.

    andywarner
    Free Member

    tj – of course it is. and?

    trailmonkey
    Full Member

    the cultural and employment issues could easily be sustained b drag hunts

    so how do you explain the insistence of people to hunt foxes despite the ban ? hunting the wild animal is clearly an intrinsic part of the ritual.

    sorry, couldn't let it go.

    toys19
    Free Member

    Ah – so unlike most hunt defenders you accept that it is about killing for fun? Not morally acceptable to the majority of the population – why not badger baiting then? Or cock fighting?

    Yes I do accept it, its a fact, denying it weakens the position.

    I wasn't brought up with badger baiting, and the badger cannot get away so its a bit worse. I've seen cock fighting in Indonesia amazing but not particularly interesting. I don't want to start any new cruel sports, but fox hunting is here and is part of my heritage. Hands off.

    I can find no justification whatsoever for killing animals for fun.

    You a vegan then? Because you do not need meat or animal products there is plenty available in the modern diet to keep you healthy, in fact some would argue healthier.And plenty of synthetic products to replace hide products.

    andywarner
    Free Member

    as we speak i have a haunch of venison shot by neighbour marinating in red wine and herbs. it smells beautiful and tomorrow i will be tucking into it whilst giving silent thanks to the doe that reared it and the man that shot it. and i will feel no remorse whatsoever. might even go catch the hunt meet if i have time whilst it slowly roasts.

    andybach
    Free Member

    But surely most people eat meat in the Uk because we enjoy eating meat – we don't actually want to think to much about the husbandry or the slaughtering issues, so long as its got an RSPCA sticker on the shrink wrap. And the vast majority of meat/eggs and dairy products doesnt get farmed in a warm and cuddly way.

    If people didn't enjoy eating bacon – we wouldn't support a Danish pig farming industry that uses various practices banned in the UK for several years. Whilst the UK pork industry goes out of business.

    What about the cruelty cats do to the local wildlife – if we banned the ownership of cats it would have done far more to prevent animal cruelty than banning hunting. But there is no votes in it.

    The law is an ass amd that's why so few people have been prosecuted, with a bit of rational thought – far greater steps could have been taken, e.g. licensing hunts which would have given far greater control over some of the "fringe " hunting activities which are still ongoing.

    I once watched a documentary on wolves hunting caribou in Canada – the wolves singled out the animal they wanted and spent all day tracking it and trying to seperate it from the rest of the herd. It was fairly gruesome to watch, the caribou new for several hours that its number was up and it was only a matter of time before it got exhausted and eventually collapsed. This was prime time BBC 2 and my colleagues at work the next day were really excited and talked about the battle of wits and how the different wolves all worked together with differnet strenghts to track and pull the caribou down. Not that differnet from watching a pack of hounds single out and track down a stag – except the stag is shot rather than getting ripped apart…………………..

    toys19
    Free Member

    Andybach – on the nail and succinct.
    andywarner- nice. I've got plenty in the freezer.

    Kitz_Chris
    Free Member

    What I think is really disgusting is the increasing trend of the pheasant shoots, particularly around here in North Devon. The farmer next door raises beteen 2000-3000 pheasants a year in a 250 acre woodland. His main clientele are business groups from large banks and other city based companies who can afford the £1000 for a couple of days of mindlessly killing 30 pheasants. Why is this acceptable and fox hunting is not? it isnt even sport – there are so many birds breed that you can walk through the woods and pick them up with your bare hands, and it takes no skill to kill a huge number, more than could be possibly eaten. This isnt aimed at 'Toffs' because they have their own land. This isnt aimed at normally country folk, or normal city folk. its only because its the rich city people that it continues.
    I grew up in the countryside and simply oppose the double standards that town dwelling people apply to the countryside. let urban problems be dealt with by urban dwellers and country problems be delt with by people who actually use the countryside to make a living.

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