I was going to call my cat "Bastard" just for the sheer fun of calling him in every night - i was going through a Father Jack phase at the time.
Chickened out and called him Beans in the end. Didn't quite have the same effect.
Unfortunately he is now toast.
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Huckleberry Finn and Removal of the N word...
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Posted 1 year ago #
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Do you cringe when you listen to Gangsta Rap of an evenings relaxation Teej?
It seems acceptable for a black man to call another brother a nigger.
The thing that strikes me as being quite ironic about such offensive words, is that despite the fact they have historically been used in a derogatory manner, thus making them offensive, they are ultimately based on simplistic translations of various forms of language. Negro for example, simply means 'black' in some languages and is even derived from a latin word.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Actually thats nigga in the rap, That don't bother me but "Ho" does
Its the context that counts. Gibson is a childhood hero of mine - but to here the causal use of the word nigger sets my teeth on edge. Acceptable tehn of course in a way it is not now
I don't say I am right in my reaction to this - but its my honest reaction and I thought it interesting to add to the debate - its about how politically charged words can become
Posted 1 year ago # -
Much of the power of Huck Finn derives from the language - and Huck's dawning realisation that he must save Jim. Retro-fiddling with the text isn't going to achieve anything useful, certainly not in comparison to what Twain actually achieved as a writer.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Yawn. This was done the other day and I went to reply but ernie'd got there before me with much the point I wanted to make. So I'll make it tonight. Mark Twain is one of America's greatest writers and thus his books should IMO be taught in schools. However, how is a teacher supposed to teach it as a great work of historical fiction to a class of different races AND deal with the rights and wrongs of the word "nigger" being used. So for this reason, I agree with the censorship for school editions.
For the rest of you purists who are just crazy to read books with the word "nigger" in there, there are always unedited editions available for your enjoyment.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Good point, well made DD. Worth the wait!
Posted 1 year ago # -
Clearly we should also rewrite To Kill A Mockingbird, since it blatantly portrays black people as criminals!
Posted 1 year ago # -
Posted 1 year ago #
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Changing the past to suit the moral conventions of today is wrong on so many counts - if we change it, we are in danger of returning to it.
Removing the word in question is dangerous - we need to be constantly reminded that the fight for racial equality and acceptance in the USA, the world's supposed 'civilised and democratic' superpower, has only been (partially) won over the last couple of generations.
Context is everything - surely it's useful for kids growing up today to see things how they actually were, not as we wish that they had been?
However, how is a teacher supposed to teach it as a great work of historical fiction to a class of different races AND deal with the rights and wrongs of the word "nigger" being used.
Explain the context & ask questions:
Did Twain use the word himself in his own life?
Was the word used by everyone in society regardless of intention?
What other words were used to describe people of different races and why? When did the word become pejorative?
Was Twain aware that the word was offensive and placed it in the mouth of his hero purely to show that even those with good intentions can cause unintended offence?
All these things could be discussed to give context to the book.If we don't talk about these things, they fester.
Pretending they never existed is even worse.Posted 1 year ago # -
if we change it, we are in danger of returning to it.
Most of your post was funny but this was friction hilarious.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Most of your post was funny but this was friction hilarious.
Well go then DD, explain why!
Would you suggest a special version of 'The Merchant of Venice' with all the anti-Semitism removed?
What about Othello?
Should we delete all references to the Holocaust when dealing with WWII?
Perhaps we should rewrite everything we teach, in case anyone asks awkward questions about the beliefs and attitudes of our predecessors?
Posted 1 year ago # -
CAREFUL! You'll have the STW police ban you and you'll then be greeted with "You are banned for 24hrs nasty **** racist".
This happened to me when i wasn't even being racist!
Posted 1 year ago # -
For the rest of you purists who are just crazy to read books with the word "nigger" in there
Ooh, DD you big tease. I'll cross out the N word in my old edition... and achieve what, exactly? What about its use in A True Story, Repeated Word for Word As I Heard It? Essentially, a dead white anglo-saxon male pretending to be an old black slave woman?
He was quite rude about the Irish on occasion. I'll start a campaign, just for you.
Anyway, as a post-script to this thread: I keep on meaning to get around to reading this.
(And the last word should always go to A Tribe Called Quest).
Posted 1 year ago # -
[quote[Zulu-Eleven - MemberClearly we should also rewrite To Kill A Mockingbird, since it blatantly portrays black people as criminals![/quote]
Have you actually read the book? What the book actually says is that if you were a black person being tried then in the deep south of America you were unlikely to get a fair trial.
As for Wing Commander Gibson (VC, DFC and bar, DSO and bar) leave him and the name of the dog alone - it was a common name for dogs at the time (and it isn't now) and it's a fact - get over yourselves.
Are we now saying that Gibson was a racist and a bad person (which I don't think he was)? Does it matter anyway considering the debt we owe to him and his comrades?
Posted 1 year ago # -
As for Wing Commander Gibson (VC, DFC and bar, DSO and bar) leave him and the name of the dog alone - it was a common name for dogs at the time (and it isn't now) and it's a fact - get over yourselves.
Indeed. Lest we forget, Adolf was also a popular name, but now it is not.
Posted 1 year ago # -
The N Bomb has never exactly been a term of endearment.
Should the books be censored? I dunno. If left in, then I would hope that a good teacher would use it as an anti-racism discussion point, which would then be reinforced by the storyline. Kids will know the word before the curriculum teaches it to them anyway from films, music etc so it's not like it would be instantly added to their vocab.
Then again, it has been replaced with the word "slave" and if it really doesn't take away from the story and the message then why not? Also, I don't like the idea of black children sat embarrassed due to the language of anything taught in school. Undecided.
EDIT;
(VC, DFC and bar, DSO and bar)
FLIPPIN 'ECK!Posted 1 year ago # -
He was quite rude about the Irish on occasion. I'll start a campaign, just for you.
Really. There's no need. I'm not sure you'd be up to it tbh.
Posted 1 year ago # -
My daughter corrected my singing of bah bah black sheep the other day. Apparently her nursery is teaching them bah bah White sheep.
For why exactly??? That's not the blimmin words!
It doesn't even scan right.Posted 1 year ago # -
EDIT;
(VC, DFC and bar, DSO and bar)
FLIPPIN 'ECK!Yes, quite. Bit of an understatement. Those were not handed out with the rations.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Also, I don't like the idea of black children sat embarrassed due to the language of anything taught in school.
Well, as DD said, this is an entirely valid point - though I would hope that any Lit teacher worth their salt would teach the book appropriately.
But I just find the wider debate bizarre - as if changing the text of Huck Finn somehow lessens the often-appalling reality of slavery-era America. Especially given Twain's personal beliefs and his tireless campaigning for social justice.
Really. There's no need. I'm not sure you'd be up to it tbh
No win, no fee - I promise!
Posted 1 year ago # -
Rather than using the N word, could he not just refer to him as his "bro from another Ho"?
Posted 1 year ago # -
Yes, quite. Bit of an understatement. Those were not handed out with the rations.
No joking. I'm not really up on the RAF, I love the stories of individual courage; Paddy Blair Mayne and Tom Durrant are particular favorites. Darcy, you should be familiar with the former?Posted 1 year ago # -
Darcy, you should be familiar with the former?
Embarrassingly, no
Military stuff not really my strong point. Y'know me...hand wringing pacifist that I am Hey look, I'm not suggesting that we retrospectively censor every novel/play with offensive terms or that portray certain communities negatively. (yes Rusty, that's for your benefit matey before you make more silly suggestions) We live in more enlightened times. I'm sure that case by case common sense will prevail. And the more enlightened among us will decide what's best for the rest of you.
I studied the Merchant of Venus - at a time when anti Semitic jokes were bandied about quite freely. Did it make us worse? No. Did it reinforce a negative stereotype? Quite possibly, yes.
Posted 1 year ago # -
And the more enlightened among us will decide what's best for the rest of you
The STW mods can't be everywhere, mind.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Glad that was taken as it was meant.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Glad that was taken as it was meant
I can't afford to get on the wrong side of either you or Backhander. I am returning to Bristol in a few months.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Darcy, he played rugby for Ireland, the Lions and went on to be a founder member and eventually CO of the SAS. His antics are folklore even in the modern SAS. Possibly the hardest man to ever have come from these isles.
Noteeth, let me know if you fancy a (slow) ride or a fast beer!Posted 1 year ago # -
he played rugby for Ireland, the Lions and went on to be a founder member and eventually CO of the SAS
Mark Twain was in the SAS?
Posted 1 year ago # -
Ta, Backhander. I should be back by summer - been away five years and suffering severe Bristol pub withdrawal symptoms...
Posted 1 year ago # -
Literature can only reflect the author's outlook and is often of it's time. Updating for modern sensibilities is fine if the context remains undiluted. Is the dog's name in the Dambusters central to the plot? Probably not, so why offend some of the class for the sake of authenticity?
Obviously if race or colour is the core subject matter, as in Huck Finn, Roots etc, sanitisation would likely be counter productive to the storyline, so leave well alone.
Posted 1 year ago #
Topic Closed
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