Ironically, I normally pop on here as the receiver of bad news and requesting help for me, but on this occasion I need help disposing of a complete cock who works for me.

The subject in question is a salesman who works for the company I am Sales Manager for, He’s just gone over his 12 months period so sacking him without reason is now out of the window due to employment rights.

For a while now this fella has been a complete bumbling pilock, he’s missed meetings that have been arranged, a couple of us arranged to meet him and his customer in Bristol a few months ago, involving three of us making 200 mile plus trips and he forgot about it and didn’t turn up citing he mistakingly double booked him.

Over a month ago I decided to ‘micro manage’ him, asking him for call sheets and mileage sheets to clarify his movements. After three weeks he sent them by post (even though everything is in excel, on a brand new lap top he didn’t open for six months!) and when they arrived they were a total piss take. Because he’s being managed now he’s gone out into the field and randomly turned up at customers without appointments, wasting fuel and time and generally being totally unproductive.

Everything he says and does is totally negative, everything is the company’s fault because we don’t sell this, we can’t do that etc etc. His annual target is an industry standard £1m, he’s not even done a third of it in a year. The other salesman for the company has done £450k in 5 months. This chap has come from a competitor with 20 years experience, he’s no newbie to this game.

He started to act and behave very suspiciously and it has made the whole board of directors angry to the point that one of them rang someone who he said he’s seen and they said they hadn’t. So we sent him a letter outlining our case and invited him for a disciplinary meeting on Monday coming.

He’s gone off and got a letter from the receptionist to say he did attend but then rang the contact at the company an hour later to see if he could see him. In his defence he’s saying that he didn’t see the chap but he did go there, which is kind of trying to get off on a technicality.

We don’t employ £40K a year sales people to drive 175 miles on the off chance to see if someone is in, we want professionals who plan what they do and maximise their time. He’s done sweet FA for months and the first chance we get to see what he’s up to he fakes it or tries and gets off on a technicality.

The company solicitor is being very cagey and non committal on what to do but I want to rip him a new arsehole and send him home on the train on Monday with his notice in his pocket and a week’s compensation for not having access to his company car.

He’s shown all the signs of ‘not being suitable for the job’ and when prompted for proof has put very dodgy case forward. He rang in sick for three days this week with stress and has been sending me emails saying he’s not looking forward to Monday as it’s ‘harrowing to have to drive up to HQ’ etc

My Directors are actually very risk averse and are a fab little family firm who don’t turn over many staff so this is all new shit to them, me being in sales it’s not and it’s usual stuff and he’s an expensive mistake.

I’d have thought that we either fire him off with his notice or get a compromise agreement signed.

Any thoughts are welcome

didn’t they just up the employment rights thing to 2 years?

I think they are planning to and may not have been actioned yet

As a ‘manager’ you don’t really seem all that aware of employment rights or what your staff are doing.

Are you sure it’s not you against the wall on Monday?

Pmsl I bet he posts on here durning the day as he enjoys his lazy days work. Bloody private sector, bunch of lazy flekers.

Give him a written warning, after 3 give him the bump.

In BS corporate speak you need to ‘manage him out of the business’

I know this doesn’t help but how come it’s take 12+ months to come to this decision? IME (sales background etc) you can normally assess whether a fellow sales person (ACM, field, manager, director or whatever) is fit for the role in a few weeks or months.

He’s not a tiger then?

What I find funny is that a so called manager has to post on a bike forum for advice. Maybe it’s time for a pay cut, I’m sure your directors would be impressed with your post.

Imagin a doctor coming on here looking for advice on how to treat their patients.

This place gets better and better.

Waiting 13 months to tackle this is hard to understand; no matter – he’s in need of a cock-punch and you sound like the man to give it to him.

Being sales, won’t he just take this in his stride and pack his bags for pastures new? He’s miles off his targets, is already behaving like he wants a way out, so it’s not like he can dig his heels in around a defensible position.

Get some proper legal advice from mentor or peninsular etc. basically you need to start a formal management process. 4 weekly review period, weekly call in/documented discussions. If target not hit at 4 weeks then warning. Second period of 4 weeks same process, second warning then final 4 weeks same process. It should take you 12 weeks. BUT if he can demonstrate a lack of close management support tribunal can sometimes favour employee. You need to collate all correspondence and emails you have had over period he has been employed. Agree with space monkey above you could be in an awkward spot if you have taken 12 months to realise you have a problem with performance?
Don’t offer compromise agreement as you should be able to get him out if you do the above for 12 weeks.
Good luck
Richard

Don’t offer compromise agreement as you should be able to get him out if you do the above for 12 weeks.

I wouldn’t allow someone with close contact to customers 12 weeks to hang himself and potentially destroy a load of business.

I’d pay him off

He’s clearly hankering to get signed off with stress, so legally you need to be absolutley clear on your position.
Why its taken so long to come to this confuses me. You have the 12 month period for EXACTLY this reason. Now you need to jump through every hoop going to get shot of him.
Should have never got this far….

No offence but I would suggest you contact the mods and get this thread removed. If anyone who knows the guy comes across this and then lets him know I suspect a number of employeement rights may have been breached.

It’s probably not very hard to work out your employer using google and your forum profile, and you’ve already aluded to the fact he’s one of two sales guys….

How do you know there’s not something devastatingly wrong in his life outside work?

The 12 month limit for canning someone without a reason lifted to 24 months for people employed after April 1st this year. In your position I’d drag him in and basically put a compromise agreement on the table which can be potential tax free. If he doesn’t go for this (and he’d be a Muppet not to) it should be relatively easy to manage him out as he’s in sales.Set some non negotiable sales targets, say £200k per quarter (which is less than his annual target), if he doesn’t’t hit it go through the disciplinary process. Actually I’d be tempted to give him a two month target, then written warning, followed by a month target with a final written followed by dismissal a month later. The trick is to make him realise he’s going either way and sooner with a cash payoff would better for him without giving him a case for constructive dismissal. You’d be looking at a £10k to £ 15k payout but that going to be easier and cheaper than managing him out and a lot better than he”ll get from tribunal.

The subject in question is a salesman who works for the company I am Sales Manager for, He’s just gone over his 12 months period so sacking him without reason is now out of the window due to employment rights

[quote]For a while now this fella has been a complete bumbling pilock[/quote]

wot they ^ said

let me get this, you ve had a guy for a year who has become an arse, now its going to cost five figures to get rid of said arse ?

what kind of industry you in ?

Sounds like you need to go and have a chat with you lawyer again and ask them to hold your hand through the process.

Then, once he’s gone, ask for some HOUR training on your legal responsibilities as a manager – TBH am surprised you haven’t done this already.

I can not belive a ”manager’ has just posted that on a cycle forum.
That is 100% unprofesional and if you are found out by a friend or family member, of this person.
You are putting your company in a position of being taken to an employment tribunal, being sued for 000’s and you being fired!

So i agree, if i were you i would strongly ask the mods to remove all traces of this thread! And quickly!!!

Hilarious.

£40K a year for him and you can’t even supervise your own staff despite presumably being paid even more.
I wonder why the country is in such a mess…

inadvertently the op has revealed the real way that many firms operate, wing and a prayer– oh and plenty of bs….

Surely he hasn’t just started this.

You’ve had twelve months to assess the suitability of this guy and now you’re deciding you don’t like him. You’ve got a few limited options

1) don’t post this kind if stuff on a forum, as its unprofessional
2) Manage him properly
3) Find out what your processes are and follow them

Strangely, this post probably contravenes larger parts of your own codes of conduct than the employee we’re discussing.

how come it’s take 12+ months to come to this decision?

good question! the very least you could have done was extend his probation or put him on a performance management plan prior to this.

plus there was ample opportunity to stack him with written warnings for the missed meeting before, and now this.

As above, get rid of this thread. You / your company could be properly in the sh*t if the wrong people read this and put 2+2 together.

why not sack yourself with a big cash handshake to sooth the pain .. win win

Our work just pays everyone off with compromise agreements – simple, clean, effective.

You manage sales staff bringing in millions…pay for legal advice.

You should really get professional HR advice before you take any further action.

+1 what tricky dicky said

1. Trial period / probationary period 3 to 6 months
Settling in , understanding the role, understanding the company culture
Company understanding your capability and conduct, clear terms and conditions plus person/ job spec given and employer expectations
2.formal weekly reviews with line manager including objective setting, things learned,
What went well/ not so well, review the previous week
3. Diarised appointment system put on a central system so everyones movements and appointments are transparent
4.Any issues with the above , document at review and set clear objectives and improvement required
5.all good after probationary period – sign off by both parties
6.Qtr PDP ( personal development plan) set by employee with input from line manager , agreed tasks and objectives set
7. Failing? PIP – performance improvement plan with clear criteria and expectations
If still not delivering then follow disciplinary process until performance improves or ” manage out the business”

My 2p worth – the companies failed you by not having a robust process in place and in turn you have failed your direct report by not having strict boundaries of what is acceptable and whats not
I suggest that you speak to the MD and appoint a HR manager and a employer relations company for advice
If you have a HR Manager/ Director then what the **** are they playing at ??

Is this thread for real?

Seriously if you ask this advice on a public forum you need sacking first!

Sorry if the truth hurts.

If I was you geordiemick00 – I’d be begging the mods to delete this thread.

In my time on here I’ve seen some stupid threads and some unprofessional threads – this is the first stupidly unprofessional thread that I’ve spotted.

It would however make for a half decent troll – but trolling is a banning offence.

You Trollin’ Bro’?

I get £40K a year.

I get it for being in charge of an Intensive Care unit, no car, no perks, working nights, working three weekends out of four.

He can’t even sell stuff!

(Of course I get a yacht and a Rolls Royce when I retire… 🙄 )

if you ask this advice on a public forum you need sacking first!

This.

I have some sympathy with the OP as, until recently, I carried a management responsibility for a small team.

The management part of my job was a small proportion and it was expected that chargeable work would always trump management activities. As we were very busy I had little time for formal management.

For two members of my team this was ok as they were conscientious and professional and never caused any issues. The third member of the team was a different story and was unreliable and slapdash with his work.

I let this slide for too long and when I finally tackled it he accused me of bullying and made a formal complaint which was investigated by our HR team and found to be baseless.

This caused me a lot of stress and I requested that I lose the management responsibilities which was agreed. The guy who took over the management has had the same issues with this guy who is now off work with stress (eight weeks and counting).

I guess I am trying to say some people are just untrustworthy and are very difficult for non-career managers to deal with.

OP you have my sympathy – I wish I had acted sooner but by calmly detailing the issues I managed to disprove the complaint against me and establish that the guy had not been performing to the standard required. It can be stressful and I would try to work with your HR team (or get the company to get external advice).

I hope it works out ok.

I guess I am trying to say some people are just untrustworthy and are very difficult for non-career managers to deal with.

But you get paid to deal with it.
Paid.
Like people give you money to sort out exactly this kind of problem.

I’m not a ‘career manager’, but I have to deal with this kind of stuff every day along with all the other stuff that lands on me. I don’t have the option to decide not to deal with it; I have to deal with it.

…and if I get it wrong, I get judged and hammered.

The whole story sounds like someone needs to ‘ave a word and get it sorted.

surprised this thread is still hear, the only thing more surprising than this is the people on hear that seam to think that its ok to pay people off, presumably because they dont effectively manage their staff.

i guess if the ops business is a small tightly family run business its possible they have not encountered staff like this before and are inexperienced in dealing with it. looking at this from a corporate perspective this is a mind boggling thread, suggest you start with acas or bis for support if your keeping this in house and not got proficient HR support…

May I suggest that the grumpy gits on this thread make an early start for their ride tomorrow? Far too much nastiness and it doesn’t make good reading.

CG is right again 🙂

Interesting that it’s always the employee’s fault, never poor management.