We are all client sales manager, just have different customers. They are saying they are making the role supporting my customer redundant - although one of my colleauges will take over the job of looking after them.
HR advice - been called into the office at a moments notice...
Barney, sorry to hear your news, i could drag you out on a monday morning for a bimble....
Get real advice. On the surface that sounds unfair.
Drop me a pm I do sales recruitment and may have a way to help.
Bimble would be good, but have to take a customer out in Leeds for dinner (one appointment I'm not going to miss since the company are paying)
Sorry to here about that, but know how you feel at the moment..
some one else for the stw jobless club..
They are saying they are making the role supporting my customer redundant - although one of my colleauges will take over the job of looking after them.
Is there any reason why you could not take over your colleague's customers, and make him redundant? If clients are transferable between sales managers on the same level, there's no reason for them to single you out.
As I said, get some legal advice. It may even be worth bringing a solicitor along to your next meeting, as you are entitled to do, just so that they can make sure you're not getting shafted for the wrong reason.
Any monday, whenever it suits you..
Right off to bed - been up since 3am - will post more details in the morning.
Having just been through this
Get informed from ACAS, their help line is brilliant.
Find a good colleague to go into the meetings, you talk and think, they write and support.
Prepare with your colleague.
Have a "win the war, not the battle approach".
Make sure the legal process is followed (ACAS again).
Be careful with compromise agreements in the longer term re your status post end of job
Keep onside with your soon to be ex employer, you may be back contracting for them!
If you have redundancy insurance make sure they make you redundant and avoid any use of the word "voluntary" in anything written.
I got skittled by the working away from the office scenario (your 200 miles away, right?). Look to performance appraisals, agreements or whatever with your employer if they sanctioned this....
email me if you need any more help... ricDOTandreaATtalktalkDOTnet
Davy - my thoughts too!!
Goz - It could be a long running thing
Basically with most companies they will have decided that you are the one they want to let go - for whatever reason - logical or illogical - and they will play the rules to get their way. The power in this situation isn't in your hands. Usually in Sales the reason they give is the bottom line. Check your figures ASAP.
I reckon that you just have to get the best possible outcome if they really want you out and move on.
My advice would be to get all your sales info and also
the person whom is to take over your position/client.
And then look for legal advice and go from there as if your redundant
then so is that role within the company.
Bushwacked, sorry to hear you're going through this, I had it late last year, it was and continues to be f*cking horrible - though I am starting a great new job in the new year, after 13 months unemployed!
2 points worth remembering - your company is legally obliged to either provide you with a lawyer or the funds (up to a reasonable cap) to source your own.
Any redundancy type agreement carries no legal standing unless ratified, or perhaps even countersigned, by a solicitor.
Secondly, any settlement should have the first £30k tax free. You'll be made to take the risk on this - I was, and this is relatively common. But it's not a magnanimous gesture on their part - it's how the govt. has structured the payout.
I took advice from a HR lawyer friend who advised that companies never pay out out of the goodness of their hearts, they pay out because they fall foul of particularly prescriptive due dilligence type procedures and are concerned about the implications should these failures be proven.
I did alot of work on this during the process, gave them a real grilling and did very well for it. The trick seems to be letting them think you're reasonably serious about going the distance and are firm on your convictions, without them thinking you're an emotional nutter who is out for blood, will never be happy and who would as easily be dealt with in a tribunal.
Previous posters have all made very fair points re; the selection pool. If you are one of 5 who effectively do the same job, then all 5 should be pooled and may the best man/woman win thereafter. It's only if you're in a niche area, or perhaps your particlar customer base has dried up that you could be legally considered to be in a pool of one. Demand to see their selection criteria, esp. why your colleagues aren't pooled with you.
Don't be pressurised into answers / undertakings in the meeting(s). The process is designed to answer your questions (within reason), so make them answer each and every one to your satisfaction.
If you're in a pool of one (I was), I sadly suspect you're not so much as fighting your corner as negotiating the terms of your exit. Give them hell over it though. It could be financially worth your while.
Proving they haven't adhered to the process is (in my) opinion absolutely key.
You've been tagged. You'll never fit there again.
Regard yourself as no longer bound to them, and take every action to your maximum advantage from this point.
Be tough, objective, and use legal muscle to get you the best possible deal. Remember they are not your friends, so don't get sucked into any matey arrangements. They want to get rid of you as cheaply as possible.
Try to get out with the maximum and written references.
bombers are in the post mate....send em back when your finished with them (cleaned!!!)
Sorry to hear the news.
As per the above advice regarding employment law and bomber postage but also try and find opportunities to gain access to their unguarded shoes. Keep your bladder as full as possible just in case the opportunity arises.
Seems like they have missed out the consultancy part of the process i.e. maybe they should have informed all 5 sales managers that redundancies are going to be made initially, and clearly stated the criteria they are going to use - see http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/your_money/employment/redundancy___an_introduction/redundancy___procedures_your_employer_must_follow.htm for more details.
Get yourself the best legal advice you can - it will help reduce the stress on you, and hopefully will maximise any payout!
Gutted for you, as I said before been in this situation twice (luckily / unluckily the third redundancy was handled more professionally).
Sounds like they've zeroed in on you, also sounds like they probably haven't followed procedures fully.
A couple of really good point made above which I'd definitely echo.
You've been tagged. You'll never fit there again.
I sadly suspect you're not so much as fighting your corner as negotiating the terms of your exit.
Not right, not fair but reality. You have two choices really, accept the inevitable, hold your head high and get out with as much as you can or try and fight it.
The first isn't right but in the long run will probably leave you in a better place mentally (which is very important when looking for another job) and financially.
The second option is what you ought to do but I wouldn't recommend it. It'll take a lot of time, possibly money and emotional committment and will result in you either keeping your job (as a marked man) or still losing your job but being emotionnaly shattered and having wasted potential months of job search time whilst your redundancy money filters away.
By all means question their process, selection criteria and even bluff that you are going to get legal advice. They'll probably bump up your hand out, whether it ends up tax free is complex issue.
My advice is accept what's happening and try and move on with your life as quickly as possible. Despite all the union work over the years employment still isn't fair and transparent, never will be, particular for salaried employees, don't end up fighting someone elses dogmatic battle, it's easy for others to recommend lawyers, fighting the decision etc., it's not that straight forward in the real world. Good luck, keep your chin up, don't burn your bridges. It's hell now but you will get through it, I have 3 times, not sure I'd manage a fourth .
Keep us posted.
Bit overwhelmed to come back and find so much support and advice - Thanks STW!!! I was updating last night via my blackberry (sorry my companies BB) so saved this for now after I had a rest.
Number of things really annoy me about this process.
Already feel like I'm being treated like I'm an ex-employee. No one will talk to me and be honest about what is happening. Its obvious that they have a plan but they won't tell me what it is - Bastards do they think I am a fool!!! I know they have to follow a process but even my boss who I used to work with in the same team and is / was a friend hasn't even had a quiet world in trust.
I had the meeting and couldn't believe I'd driven in and 10minutes later it was over. Certain points that came out I'm really not happy with:
1. The fact that out of 5 people who are employed as CSMs in the Telco team and are assigned specific Telecoms clients, I'm the only one going and I signalled earlier in the year I had spare capacity and I could take on another big client - so the fact that one of my colleagues has just one client like me, has been with the company a third of the time I have, is a baffoon and hasn't sold as much new business this year as me really pisses me off as I could easily do his job and mine!!!
2. I was expected to drop everything and attend this meeting and then another meeting the following day. The second meeting is to allow me to collect my thoughts and so on, but actually having it so soon gives me no time to do anything.
3. When talking about when we could have the next meeting I advised I would contact them when I was ready - to which I got the reply "Any delays to the consultation process wouldn't stop the outcome happening in the expected timescales" - How the fook do they know what the timescales for the outcome would be if they don't know what the outcome will be yet???
4. How can the position be made redundant supporting this customer but someone will carry on supporting this customer once the redundancy is made?? Surely that doesn't mean the role is redundant? Especially as the customer is still spending millions of pounds with the company. Admittedly the revenue has dropped by a third this year due to the recession in the housing market and because of severe cost cutting client side. But if this isn't performance related then it must be head count and in that case the person who is getting the BT account should also be up there as I can do that job too... in fact I could do it much better if it is who I think it is
5. The HR guy was really up his ass, condascending, smug **** and I was really tempted to give him a kicking and cave his face in and fit is with bat guano!!
6. They didn't really explain the process, only through me asking did I find out what the next steps were and then I'm not really any wiser on what I need to do or prepare for this next meeting - they mentioned something about mitigation and being formally notified - mitigation for what? Am I supposed to convince them that I am the best man for my job ahead of ...??... oops forgot I'm the only person up for this process!!
On the whole I am really pissed off with the process and rationale used so far. Not pissed off with the fact I am having a change in my life as a change is as good as a rest.
Looks like they have a game plan and its giving me the heave ho and getting rid of headcount or another position in the company (I was offered one a few months ago but the position wasn't in my favor so I turned it down after being told it wouldn't affect my position and I was advised by one of the other senior directors I know well only to take it if there was something in it for me which there wasn't, but I know that there is a team of CSMs which is under-resourced quite badly)
Either way, I'm chilled about it. I've done the sums and even with a minimal payout I can survive for 6-9months.
TBH honest even if they give me a new role I'm gonna look at new jobs and see what is out there as the way I've been treated is bad.
PS. Had a great ride last night - just what I needed to chill out - Managed to get a barend to the sideburn and now have a lump on my face but its all good!!
Managed to get a barend to the sideburn and now have a lump on my face but its all good!!
Now that gives me an idea of how to negotiate your exit package!!
Oh - that's Edward Norton from the office scene, sorry best pic i could get!
Just got into work and started reading through this again to catch up...
When I went trhoguh the same thing last year it was a lot more transparent and they had a "points score" thing for each chemist stating things like timekeeping, ability, Health & Safety etc and the company *should* have done the same with each of it's 5 Sales Managers and that should have been explained to you.
On the other hand with only 1 or 2 redundancies they don't have to give you any notice (if it's >20 they have to have a consultation period).
You have the right to a copy of any written notes that HR take in these meetings (they *are* taking notes aren't they?), you can also see the points scoring criteria used to decide why you should be the one to go. You can be accompanied in these meetings by a colleague/union rep/solicitor, that person is entitled to ask questions but not to answer questions on your behalf.
A lot depends on how long you've been there as to your rights of any severance package, you'll have to have a look on CAB or similar for that. If they're not following procedure and it's not documented to the nth degree you've probably got a case for constructive dismissal.
What I would do now is get real good advice, let them hang themselves and once they have decided that you are to be made redundant in an unfair process inform them you will be going to tribunal for unfair dismissal.
It will cost them a lot of money to defend the tribunal - and more if you win ( altho tribunal winnings are not high generally as they only cover you for what you have lost)
Then negotiate a settlement not to go to tribunal
This approach once netted me £7000 when I was only entitled to £400.
You need real good advice tho.
Genuinely sorry to hear the news Bushwacked.
Had a similar experience a while back, and it properly fooked me up. The most destructive element for me was trying to figure the "why me" question. Often there are no valid answers, so for what its worth my best advice is to follow the advice given above, keep records, contemporaneous notes, take advice, negotiate the best possible deal etc etc, but whatever you do don't waste your energy on the rights and wrongs of it once its over. See it as an opportunity to manage your career. Good people are always in demand and if you are one you are not limited to any one sector.
The HR guy was really up his ass, condascending, smug ****
I think it's a job requirement.
It's good that you're being positive about it. I think (from the sounds of it), that it's pretty much inevitable now, but that's no reason to give up. Fight for as much as you can get, and as mentioned above, don't get suckered into accepting any sort of "voluntary" terms. Make sure you keep a record of everything that is said in the meetings etc, and even any personal conversations with your colleagues/management. Keep a diary of what happens when. It may also be worth taking a voice recorder into the meetings so you can take accurate notes later, although you ought to inform them that you are recording it. I can't see any reason for them to object, if everything they are doing is above board
Finally, if you have any personal data on things like laptops/phones etc. copy it out now, as you may suddenly find yourself having to hand back stuff like that, and being put on gardening leave at your next meeting.
I would seriously think about getting a solicitor to come along to the meeting with you.
The company I'm contracting for recruit for O2 and they have a few roles that might suit, I don't know for sure but feel free to drop me a mail.
Jings, reading this makes me glad I'm my own boss, ok it's got it's short comings/own stresses but I am only
answerable to me and my clients not some bunch of "managers" - " " ankers .:cough:.
Sorry to readabout this, hope it works it good in the long run. My GF was made redundant from a big blue chip, retrained as a physio, loves it, is good at it, and is way happier than she would have been had she stayed. She was 'advised' that she should consider a voluntary package. She thought I could fight, but they don't want me so what's the point.
It seems like you're resigned to going. Best approach IMO, do you really want to fight to stay where, for whatever reason they've decided they don't want you?
Like TJ said, if you're resigned to going, get advice, let them make mistakes in the process, then hammer them at the end.
And maybe you should be careful what you say on here, if it does get legal and this is found, may it could affect things.
bushwacked, was cool to ride yesterday even though i ruined my back.
if i can help you in any way please just ask. you helped me through the dark times last year and i owe my new business venture to your nudging me!
All this stuff about tribunals is negative energy wasted mate, unless you really need the money. Stuff your company, take your money, find a new job, move on to a happier place hopefully!
All this stuff about tribunals is negative energy wasted mate, unless you really need the money. Stuff your company, take your money, find a new job, move on to a happier place hopefully!The point about tribunals is that it allows people to take more money which allows more time to find a better job and end up in an even happier place.
I'd agree it was 'wasted negative energgy' if it was all about getting one back on the ex-employer. Instead it should be about getting what you deserve, getting out with dignity and setting up the best possible future.
I've only been made redundant once and I got it all wrong. Basically (being young and naive) I took the company's advice on how things should go. I wouldn't make that mistake again.
Bushwacked - you are documenting everything aren't you?
Bushwacked, sorry to hear this but am heartened to see you in positive mood. Seems to be lots of good advice and I've not been in this space so can't offer any, only to say good luck and look forward. If there's one thing I've learned, being open to change usually means there's something better out there for you.
Cheers for the comments - firing up the old PC and getting me CV up to date. Getting some advice from solicitors etc today and may go in to the office tomorrow for round 2 (may not if the weather is nice )
Joolsburger - YGM
Jedi - Will have a think and anyway you can help I'll let you know. You got any vacancies for puncture gimps or tea bitches??
i will have a think too. atkins needs a crank fitter :)
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