So, if I decided one day that I was going to start a company to make and sell bikes (or more specifically, frames), how do you go about it? Wide topic I know but I'm considering it so thought I'd solicit some info from the hive mind. I think I've probably got a reasonable idea of much of it but I'd be really interested to hear from people with real experience of it.

No doubt Brant, Si, Mike Dialled, etc could provide much info but I'm not really sure how keen they'd be helping out a potential (I'd hope!) competitor though I guess that the bike biz is typically pretty friendly.

What I'm trying to really understand is how much time and money it'd take at the start (and how feasible it'd be to start off while still doing a full time job to pay the bills until the millions start pouring in 🙂 ) and how you actually go about starting to get frames made (I'm reckoning on a similar model to On-one etc with Chinese production), what sort of numbers you need to get in order to be able to price reasonably and so on.

Thanks in advance for any helpful suggestions (or, this being STW, just anything really…)

I reckon you would make a small fortune……………….as long as you started with a large fortune 😕

obviously we'll be happy to help by testing any new frames you build 😉

There are already too many on the market

I'm out

can i be the first voice of doom.
not been involved with that exact model but i have worked in the import and distribution side of the bike trade (10 years)and came to the conclusion that starting something from scratch would be near impossible.
best of luck though 😀

oh look im not the first.

No doubt 🙂

Nah, I reckon that there's some money to be made – I'm not expecting to become a millionaire from it, mind.

I agree that starting from scratch is always going to be tricky but then I'm realistic enough to see that it may well be that it needs to be built very slowly to start to a point where you have enough awareness of the brand to get sales in on a consistent basis – that's why I said that I'd be keeping a full time job rather than going full into it from the start.

to be fair clubber its obviosley not impossible cos there are those who are doing it.

In terms of useful feedback.

I would try to do something different and cool with my frames, seat stay configurations are something a lot of people play with, On One have their fortress stays or cotic's neat wish bone. So you may need to think about that.

I would say there is a market spot for a nice but not too expensive 853 or Tange Prestige steel frame with a cool image that is sold (I know it costs more but that is your problem) through dealers. So people can get the custom builds they need and the lazy boy back up they yearn but without the hassle that is currently necessary.

You could probably set it up really cheaply too. Let me know on here if you are serious about doing it. I may have some useful ideas.

SC

I guess realistically if it works out the best you could hope for for a while is a shed/garage/lockup with a handful of prototypes and for frames you sell to subsidise your ragtag fleet. Not a bad situation at all but guess you will only get past there if you have a product that really hits the spot, preferably in a unique way.
At least you are in the right place to find willing testers, many of whom are willing to speak their minds 🙂

First, pick a good name… maybe something like… Off-Two… Apple… just thinking out loud…

it needs to be built very slowly

The problem with building a brand slowly it that you will not get the economies of scale that On-One and smiler brands get.

I guess that the key questions are how are you going to build a better bike than the Inbred and sell it for less than £135 without being accused of dumping (Australian but I believe that smiler rules apply in the UK)

A friend of mine did this a few years ago, when long travel single crown forks came about (around 2002, forks of around 150mm+) He went to Canada, saw people doing crazy drops etc on hardtail bikes that we Brits wouldnt do on proper DH bikes. So to cut a long story short he thought he would be at the front of the trend when the 'Freeride' arena hit the UK. He went to HK and had various meetings with factories and came up with a alloy frame design, quite different from most brands but still had the popular 'Rad' tubing. He re-mortgaged his house and had a few frame made (well quite a few)… He finally got them over here and they looked fantastic, really burly and different (lots of machining on the headtube and chainstay yolk etc) really nice. Then we built one…Oh dear, this is where it went wrong! The geometry was aweful, the head angle on some was so steep it was like you had the seatpost 4' up (when it was actually as low as possible) others had super slack head angles. Needless to say, he sold a few (the decent ones) and has a good load left in the loft/garage/shed.

I guess the moral is, really go through the Geometry with a fine tooth combe, ensure its either gonna work for the masses or be custom for each order. Oh and most of all, ensure the manufacturer is up to the job!

Quality standards are a must!

Good luck!

I'm sure that there is a wheel size that has not been exploited by the bike industry. Build frames for that and aim it at a mainstream group who like to think of themselves as being somehow different.

Pick a niche – Islabikes for example

Oh yes – know what you're doing too – Isla Rowntree for example

and another thing your fantastic new idea runs a good chance of showing up on ebay with no decals and an odd name if you have it made in the far east.

Running a bike business and working full-time sucks, ben there done that and got out and feel happier for it.
Also a word of warning about setting up a bike company – Pastey

Clubber, starting a bike company/brand is relatively easy, and whether it's a success or not depends on what the objective of your company/brand is. I guess it also depends on how you define "success".

Financially, Dialled Bikes isn't a success. But from a personal satisfaction perspective, it's exceeded what I expected when first starting the company in 2003.

If you've got any specific questions, feel free to e-mail me and I'll try to answer them. But I'm no expert by any means, just a bloke that likes/rides bikes and runs a bike brand in his spare time. Cy and Brant would probably be better advisors as they're more into the industry side of things than me.

I suppose what you need to learn from YETIboyJAY's example is to get prototypes made up here in the UK first before entering a full production run. I've never done it so i cant comment but it something ive always thought about and i suppose the hardest thing will be defining yourself from the other niche frame companies.

Get a marketing head on. Who is your target market, and what is your offering?

The Marketing mix: What is your Product, and how does it compare to competitors? What price will you sell it at, what message does your price convey, and is your product worth it? Promotion, how will your market get to know about it? Distribution, how you get it to your market?

Make some decisions about what you are offering under each of these. Preferably try to find a unique mix compared to competitors.

Prototypes aren't just important – they're essential! Though not necessarily made in the UK. Dialled Bikes first proto was UK made and it wasn't right, that's what led me to Taiwan.

As Clubber is thinking of Chinese production, it would make sense to take a trip to China and visit the factories of potential suitors. Don't just go with the first factory who agrees to build them.

I would tend to agree with feenster – what will you be doing that is different from On one / dialed bikes / a n other small frame manufacturer?

You need a unique selling point in a crowded marketplace. You need a pile of money to burn before you start to get any income.

Without trying to sound hugely arrogant, if you're asking really basic questions like "how much time and money it'd take at the start, how you actually go about starting to get frames made, what sort of numbers you need to get in order to be able to price reasonably and so on." then you probably aren't going to do very well at it.

Plus, to make a proper go of it, it's much more than one frame in three sizes and one colour. You need all the other stuff as well.

Richard Sachs (google him) says that as a smaller builder, if he didn't do complete bikes, then he'd have closed a long time ago. And he's ace!

But as I am waiting for my lovely wife to finish making my breakfast, here's a quicky:-

how much time and money it'd take at the start – This was a blank sheet of paper on the 1st February. It's been very hard. It'll be 12 months before I think we'll have what I consider to be a "range" in place. Money? Lots.

how you actually go about starting to get frames made – you need to find an agent, rather than a factory in my experience. Agents charge a fee, but this is usually offset by the fact they'll get better prices than you will get from a factory. Finding a good agent who understand what you want is the trick. I spend 1-2hrs a day on skype talking to my agent.

what sort of numbers you need to get in order to be able to price reasonably and so on – min 10pc per size, 30pc per colour, min order 100-150pc total. usually.

Thanks all – some really good replies.

I'm fairly well clued up business-wise so I'm fully aware of the need for an image/niche/USP/etc as well as having a pretty good idea about PR/marketing/etc. I've actually already got a pretty clear idea in my mind of the market that I'm looking at though I think I'll keep that to myself for now.

I guess that what I really am unsure about is how feasible it is to actually do while working full time and not having thousands in cash that I want to put up right from the start.

I guess that my ideas have been along the lines of starting out slowly now – designing things – and building up gradually (prototypes, starting to sort out production contracts, etc) with a view to being ready to ramp up numbers (eg actually getting things made in economic qtys) as we hopefully start to come out of recession in a couple of years and people start spending again.

PS to the guy who emailed me about graphics/web design/etc – thanks for the email and it's exactly what I'll be after when it comes to it but I think it's too early just yet. If things do happen, I'd probably be looking for someone from here to provide all that so keep an eye out!

EDIT: Thanks brant too (posted before I saw your post). I guess that my 'fairly basic questions' are just because I don't know yet – It's not the sort of thing that I find out in my normal job – rather than because I don't have the ability to find out or understand. I'm just getting info together for now to see if it's feasible within the limitations I have (eg full time job, etc) so once I have some clearer understanding it may well be that I do decide that it's a non-goer but I guess that if I do go ahead, that we'll see whether I can do well at it or not 😉

I'm a bit sceptical about a model "just like" on-one/cotic/dialled etc

What I might be interested in is somebody with access to a quality far-east (or wherever, but at least cheapish) frame builder who can be a sensible middle-man between me & them in making me a frame to my requirements (so you'd be commissioning a stream of prototypes I guess – and stopping people from making awful mistakes along the way)
(bit like SSP did using a UK builder I think – though he's stopped now hasn't he – wonder why ?)

Say I'd fancy a hardtail with a 150mm (& sliding or something) rear end & wide BB shell (or big diameter BB shell to allow eccentric bb or bb30etc or a hammerthingy, so would want chainguide mounts too). Maybe I want specific cable mounts, or none, or rack mounts etc, or a 1.5 headtube

You could offer them shipped over bare/waxed or something so buyers can get their own paint/powder etc done.

I know I could do this for myself as a one-off from china, but I can't be arsed with all(?) the setting up

I've actually already got a pretty clear idea in my mind of the market that I'm looking at

Old mincers who think 130mm forks are strictly for those freeride chappies? 😉

The Major problem with borrowing the on one business model is that you already have a group of established brands (On one, Dialled, DMR, etc) operating a similar model in the same market segment.

You’re talking about trying to sub-divide an already small market segment yet again and establish yet another niche brand to compete with all the others, to be honest the “British Designed, Far eastern Built” frame market is stuffed choc full you’ll be the new boy trying to compete on price with established brands who already have a following, basically you’re a few years too late to the market…

Perhaps look at other components on the bike, everyone seems to default to thinking about the frame but there are a fair few other parts on a bike, you’re really after an area where you can differentiate your own product from others already on the market, either on function, Value for money or pure bling.
Truly innovative new products are a great place to start from but I doubt you’ll magically just hit on that one brilliant idea (If you do, keep it to yourself, as son as you blab you’ve knackered your IP)…
It may seem like lowering your sights but it’s better to think of it as broadening your horizons….

Good Luck…

Old mincers who think 130mm forks are strictly for those freeride chappies?

Got anyone in mind? All my bikes have 130mm forks and I'm no freeride chappie.

I guess that what I really am unsure about is how feasible it is to actually do while working full time and not having thousands in cash that I want to put up right from the start.

Clubber, if you have any doubt/aversion to risk at all, and don't have £x0,000 cash to put into it as start up capital, then it's probably not a good business venture for you.

As for the build up slowly approach, that's not really viable as the Far East bike industry is pretty fast moving and they don't like people who d1ck them about ordering prototypes that take ages to go into production or never go into production (I know, as I have done this in the past and pissed a few factory owners off). Look how quickly Brant/Hotlines have moved with Ragley since Feb.

Brant… 😀 😉

Clubber:Of course a credibility to push and market the brand is crucial as this will save you time… and money..

Grass routes cred and industry knowledge.. a solid foundation in these helps! and even then it can go tit's up.
You can possibly have the best frame in the world… but if you can't get it to market 😥

And don't think it will happen in 1 year… you could be looking at 2 or 3… while living on bread and marmite in your mates flat..

If your loaded … that helps too 😀

Does any body know how Pastey are doing? I remember that they were popular a few year ago but haven't heard much about them for a while.

Just what we need more cheap far eastern junk frames…

My suggestion learn how to build frames yourself, although unless your going to back it up with a lifetime warranty and give me the geometry I want than my money will still probably go into curtis' pocket.

But it would appear plenty of people seem to buy these cheap frames with questionable warranties, just look at the amount of cotics and on-ones about. Wether or not that business model is sustainable in the long term only time will tell.

I've read this thread and I can see you have a good idea of the business process, the potential pitfalls, and the possibilities. But where is your passion for bikes? Why do bikes, why not any other industry?

It just doesn't sound like you have any specific ideas for improving bicycles.

get a few or one design together and patent it
Then find a frame maker to make one.

Build it up then go and see if anyone will take it on
and also try and get the Mags to test them as free publicity
is pricless

will the first Clubber frame be called "seal"?

Maybe 😉

as for passion for bikes – lol. You really don't know me. Similarly I've deliberately kept my specific ideas to myself. How am I going to make millions if someone else nicks my ideas 🙂

i like the sound of "clubber" bikes though

I've got another name in mind but Clubber bikes has been considered.

here you go , speak to these chaps , some of the builders on here may know them

You dont give out names just ask ?
Someone can copy right it.